Wail, buck up there lil camper, I’m just askin a relevant question. I know it’s vacation time for lots a folks around the globe…hell, it’s hotter’n haman where I am, but It just seems sorta quiet on the streets a cc right now. Or is it? You tell me. And as to yor left-handed responce there Vic, ol pal let me just say that just three days ago I sent a lengthy, chipper little implorment to “Electronic Musician” magazine tryin ta get them ta cover this here site as I thank it is a dang wonderful endeavor and needs ta be publicized more widely. And, hell, if we ain’t “electronic musicians” I don’t know who is. I told em to talk to you or Spinmeister and get the low down on what I thought (and still thank) is a vibrant, growin remix community. And while I ain’t heard back from em as yet (have you?) I actually am tryin ta generate some buzz and positive publicity. So, yea, thanks, nice, back at ya.

heh, you might have opened with mentioning the EM thing. That’s a conversation starter. EM covered us when we opened and are definitely due for an update. I suspect when the results of the RFP negotiations are announced we can leverage that for lots of cool press.

Now that’s what I’m talkin about, Spin. It’s probably just me. But swole head like I got n all, usually when I put up a mix they’s about ten or so of the regular suspects that chimes in with this or that comment re my ol magnum opus. And as I peruse other’s work I see essentially the same thang happenin ta them as well. My latest un is layin in the heat drawin flies (and don’t thank I don’t know that may be more to IT than CC ;-). But riddle me this, will ya? Over at RealWorld, when it was actually operatin (do you know they’s down to the “Top Four” now??) anybody could get literally scads a reviews for any ol piece a foolishness While over here (and I ain’t complainin, mind) ifn ya get 20 over the long haul it’s like you won the lottery or somethin, 25 and they let ya use the executive washroom for a private foot oilin. LS and I was talkin about this recently and it was puzzlin us some. Maybe it’s like my ol pal, Mark Twain said to me once: “Doghouse, he opined, they’s lies, damn lies, and statistics”. Or words ta that effect. ;-)

Plus, you know what Doghouse? No, I aint got the foggiest, Doghouse. Wail, there ain’t no “amount of actual listens by a real human bein not includin yorownself” box over there in all them “numbers” cause I just went an looked. You are pullin my laig now, Doghouse. No, I ain’t neither. In fact ifn all them jillions a people been signin up like crazy how come a few hundred of em don’t either rate or review yor stuff, riddle me that, Dog. Wail, Doghouse, I bet it’s that most of em wouldn’t know me from Adam’s off ox as they have never set foot on my page…or most anybody elses fer that matter. Them numbers is kinda like that curtain that was coverin that fella up in that documentary, The Wizard of Oz, Dog. I loved that there documentary. I know you did.

it’s hard to respond to something this without sounding defensive but I guess it’s worth a shot:

it’s difficult to compare ccM with other music sites where the only thing in common is that people upload music. The emphasis at most (all?) other music sites is the individual musician and they reflect that by stressing the stats of the individual musicians. Here, at least we’d like to think, concepts like reusing each others music, both here at the site and in the larger Commons (like in podcasts and videos) is more important. Given that, rather than measuring how much attention a single artist can garner, which again, can be found just about anywhere else on the Web, I’m more impressed by the lengths to which an artist is willing to contribute reusable source to the Commons where the only guaranteed reward is the betterment of everyone else.

Actually I thank you did quite admirablly there FS, ol pal. And I thank the “community” aspect a this place IS a very special part a what makes it so special and fun ta be a part of. That said, any ol feller or gal that takes the time and makes the effort (and fer some I bet it is quite a lot of both) to produce a remix is probably hoppin it’ll be heard by more than six of their new internet “peers”. Don’t ya thank? Maybe I’m just addle pated but surely even those good folks who simply view CC as a “playground” or “learnin experience” or “musical chat-room” secretly wish their stuff might get singled out, highly praised, editors picked, insert-yor-fantasy-adjective-here. And at the end of the day no matter how many colaborations or “reuses” or “cross pollinations” of the work and music here has been done there has to be a point to it all. An end usage. Some purpose behind it’s creation. For some end. And that there, ol pal is the $64 dollar question. Or is it?

Hey Doghouse, I just had an idea. Wail, I’ll alert the media, there Doghouse. Why not have a “whose on line right this very minute” thang here so’s at least you could see how many folks is actually takin the time ta be here at any given moment in time? You mean their names and everthang, Dog? Maybe, but ifn they was too many just a number of members online, how about that? Wail, it sounds good ta me but I’m half crazy, Dog. Whatdya mean half?

I guess it comes down to “takers” vs. “givers” - In a latter type community there are more important things than getting stroked just for showing up. If a musician shows up to this community expecting that stroke, you’re right, they will be disappointed. There are lots and lots of places on the Web (and in the world) that operate on a take-and-stroke basis and that’s fine. But I, personally, believe that music and culture as a whole doesn’t improve the human condition when that’s the only option. Embarrassingly earnest as that sounds it happens to be how I feel about it and it seems to be validated by the ongoing vitality of the site, as it is.

Wail, as usual I guess I cain’t even see the forest fer the trees again. As I don’t see at all just what the purpose of CC is. Honest. What is supposed ta motivate one ta put a remix up here? Rainbows and Lollipops? Unicorns? I’m joshin, a course, but my question is serious. Again, what is the end result of all this remixin and music makin and sharin and such supposed ta be. Ifn a tree falls in the forest is one hand clappin? Who’s supposed ta be listenin ta this foolishness? Anybody? And how in the world would we know ifn they are? I’ll bet ifn you look back (and here I’m lookin at Spins comments below) at yor own “numbers” you might find that the most activity (as in RWs case) on this site was durin the biggest contests or chance at gettin somethin…anythang for your efforts. Like now with Shannon’s “call for remixes”. All them new remixes a her songs ain’t just cause she’s got a purty voice. These here peacocks is fannin their tails…me included. Even Mozart and Beethoven, ta name but two, weren’t much different than the creators of today. They loved, fed their appetites, and had an abiding pride in all the accolades, gifts, and sexual favors they got as a result are their ol doodlins. Course, they was just nasty “takers” like ol moi. Listen, ol pal, the cussedness of this here internets thang is that one never knows who one is really talkin with. But I’ll tell ya this much. Most a what I do here, apparently, is to do nothin more than keep Spin, LS, Cam, George, Duckett, Anchor, and a couple others amused or bewildered. My play pretty days is long gone. I have paid my dues and I let my music do my talkin for me. Even tho I know I have probly shit in my own nest here as I tend to do everwhere else I admire what you’re doin and will continue tryin ta help. And you need us “takers” just as much as you need them there “sharers”. But, just in case, why dontya hip me to all these other places where I could be recognized for the uber-geniotically-superstar I am? :-)

Do you think music and the culture surrounding and resulting from it better or worse when musicians share the creative process between each other? If you think worse or no difference then you can stop reading because nothing else will make sense.

If you said ‘better’ then the next question is: is the current legal system, based on ‘all rights reserved’ in which sharing and re-use is, by default, a federal offense and musicians who do should be held criminally liable conducive to a healthy environment in which those creative and cultural improvements can be enjoyed by musicians and music appreciators? If you said ‘yes’ or think the current system is the best that we, as a society can do, then again, nothing else here will make sense.

If you said ‘no’ then you’re on the leading edge of understanding why Creative Commons and their licenses exist.

This site, so far, is intended to be a proof-of-concept laboratory for the ideals and purpose of those licenses. Further info here.

I can’t speak for every one else involved in CC and I haven’t done any broad ranging clinical psychological research but I would think that the people that have donated millions of dollars to CC, volunteered or worked for far below their market value in order to propagate the licenses and the principles they stand for are not thinking only of themselves and how many hits their profile page gets.

Some of us go so far as to claim that because the music and society at large benefits from a free-wheeling environment of sharing and re-use that there are commercial gains to be made as well. At the risk (small as it is) that I sound preachy: personal greed and a lust for approval from strangers due to a less than fulfilling relationship with one’s parents is not necessarily the main driver behind an ‘enlightened self-interest.’

With 100s of millions of CC licenses in use today I would claim that the need for them is hardly a fringe or unpopular idea. Collectively participating in making that kind of impact is a different kind of stroke that, you’re right, may not be ‘more important’ than another kind of stroke but it’s the stroke we specialize in here.

I’ll probably have ta take ya paragraph by paragraph here so let’s start at the beginnin. Whether or not music or the culture surrounin it is “made better” (how and accordin to whom you have not made clear) by sharin is a complete an utter crap shoot. And, more than likely, there won’t ever be a definitive answer to that one. If by “made better” you mean different with the possibility of dreadfulness on one end and I-never-dreamed-of-such-wonderment on the other then you bet. But music, and it’s creation, and it’s usage has ALWAYS been free and for everybody and anybody that wants to make some. Yor simply talkin about the ability to muck without fear of prosecution with somethin somebody else already did. Fine. I’m all fer anyone who wants such an arrangement fer their stuff to have at it. But as to whether havin somebody like me “betterin” anythang by futzin with it is a strictly subjective unanswerable question.

For your second paragraph I’d just ask why have any intellectual property rights at all? Again, who decides where the lines are drawn and when they get crossed? And, of course, we’re not just talkin music here. We’re talkin everthang. You cain’t modify or throw this feller’s intellectual property rights out the window while this other fellow’s completely protected can ya? But hell, I’m fine with all that too. Get the lawyers as far from it as possible. I might add tho just wait till it’s yor food that’s bein taken off the table and then tell me a happy unicorn story.

Lastly I will say that I again agree with you that there are a plethora (that’s a new word I just learned, pardon me while I use it) of opportunities for commercial gain under the CC system and as soon as one rears it’s ugly head it will tied up in a pretty pink bow and locked into a hermetically sealed drum of hands off intellectual property whup ass. So as to maximize that gain. People, don’t ya just hate em? And as to all them people who’ve donated this effort or that money wail, they are operatin out of self interest too. As we all do 24/7. They just might have a better class a self interest than some. Or do they?

Sorry, but I can’t really get into a debate with your personal opinions here. You asked for a rationale for the site and why anybody would participate for reasons other than the ones that motive you. Hopefully I’ve answered those to your satisfaction.

Wail, as per usual you have more than adequately acquitted yorself there FS, ol pal. You should be proud and not be worrien over any a my inane ramblins. But I would say that over here a feller or gal cain’t just “show up” and start demandin ta be adulated like the pope’s brother-in-law. They got ta earn what respect they get by their demeanor and, more importantly, by the quality of their work as judged by this here peer group. And I’ll take that action and them odds any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Go on with yor bad self, FourStones. Yor doin a great job as fer as I can tell.

Oh yea, I almost forgot. With all due respect ol pal. You wouldn’t have a clue what motivates me. I just been talkin ta hear my head rattle.

Quote: Doghouse RileyYou wouldn’t have a clue what motivates me.
wine, women & song?

You left out Buster.

er, I was only reffering to all the reasons you ascribed to yourself throughout this tread. If all those were just devils advocate positions then substitue that for ‘you’ - whatever. Last word is yours, it sounds like I’m done but I can’t tell from all the folksy stuff.

Wail, that there’s a trick I learned from my ol pal, Abe Lincoln. Maybe ya heard of him. Like our current Democratic candidate fer Prez he’s a senator from Illinois. Anyways, he once was supposed ta show up and debate a feller over somethin or other but the other feller was late gettin there. So Abe started waxin up a high sheen on one particular side a the issue. Then the guy arrives and derned ifn he ain’t actually on the side that Abe’s been toutin fer the last twenty minutes or so. So Abe just says “and now that I’ve explained my opponents position let me tell ya what’s wrong with it”. And starts layin inta this guy on the other side. And guess what? No, really, guess what? He whups his ass anyways. So that there’s always had a strong if disturbin influence on me as I relate to others in this ratty assed ol world. It about drives my wife bug eyed crazy. Maybe you too, ol pal. Rock on, Victor, ol pal!

Oh yea, I almost forgot. Could you enumerate them thangs that are more important than gettin stroked fer just showin up? Also, what do you mean exactly by “just showin up”?

1) hanging out with Old Dog and Doghouse Riley and all the other dogs
2) learning new tricks
3) sort of sequential online jamming
4) it’s a coffeehouse, not a concert hall dammit!
5) robot love ;-)

Now see there. Leave it to ol Spin to hit the nail right on the dang head. “It’s a coffeehouse, not a damn concerthall!” I have my coffee of a mornin just before my daily “cogitate”. And since I’m a totally self-absorbed, curmudgeonly blowhard with a messiah complex I don’t have much need for “coffee talk”. But I am “on stage” 24/7. And when I show up I’m ready to work it baby! I guess for the time bein you’ll just have to put up with me as best you can. AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

In addition to significant cultural differences, there are also remarkable numeric differences. I’ll take a shot at a couple of potential explanations:

Different Ratings Systems
One notable difference here at ccM in the ratings system, is that here you can only give a thumbs up, rather than a number 0-5.

So when compared to a 0-5 ratings system, I would expect somewhere between a third and half as many ratings in a thumbs up system. This is assuming that people will give thumbs up for what they would otherwise give a 3 to a 5 - and some people (like me) may be a bit stingier by only giving thumbs up to what they might otherwise consider a 4 or a 5.

So at least to me, 20 thumbs up at ccM would equate to somewhere between 40 and 60 ratings at rwrm. Once you look at it that way, the difference isn’t that large anymore.

The thumbs up system eliminates the nasty zero rating drive-by shootings many of us had experienced at rwrm, especially when there’s a contest, but even when just some shmuck just needs an ego trip.

Huge difference in size of sample pools
There are over 1000 a cappellas here at ccMixter, while there are about 12 at rwrm.

I suspect that with the huge pool of materials here - even if you say that only one in ten is worth remixing for any given remixer that still leaves a potential of 100 a cappellas for said remixer to take a shot at - I suspect people here remix more, because they are less bored. Less bored remixers may be less inclined to listen to and comment to others?

Way more remixes here
I counted about 30 remixes in all of July at rwrm, and I believe the height of submitted remixes at rwrm was during the Shock The Monkey contest in the summer of 2006 - how long did that last? About 3-4 months or so? If my recollection is right, there were about 900 remixes of that song during the contest. Let’s assume that there were another 100 remixes of other a cappellas during that time. That would average 250-333 remixes per month during what I think was the peak of that site. Here an average month seems to be somewhere around 350 to 450 remixes.

So I find, there are way more remixes to review here than at rwrm. Leaving less time per remix. Even some of my personal favorites don’t get a review every time, simply because there isn’t enough time in my day. And once someone has gotten a number of glowing reviews from me, I figure they know I love their work, and maybe I should give a review to someone I haven’t reviewed before.

To be honest, I can’t even listen to every remix in it’s entirety - so most remixes get a 15-30 second shot at my ears, and maybe 1 in 5 to 1 in 10 gets an entire listen.

So I find, once you start digging into the numbers, there are tons of differences between the sites - and a few of those differences may partially account for what you have observed.

I think it’s an issue of timing- we’re in the beginning of a societal shift in thinking about music production and consumption, and no transition of that nature has ever been quite as smooth or instantaneous as history seems to remember; the “old way of doing things” never surrenders w/o a fight or two… it might be later rather than sooner, but we’ll get there, no doubt.

Where is “there”. Hip me, ol pal.

“There” is the place where listeners don’t feel it’s necessary to wait for “the official Doghouse Riley Toaster Cozy” to show up in Wal-Mart in order to understand he’s a talented artist worth listening to ;-)

Now see there Duckett, ol pal. That there is the way you “duck” a pertinent question. You go girl!! And they wadn’t supposed ta be releasin no info on that there Toaster Cozy yet. When I saw the mention in People magazine I about had a caniption fit.

But you know as well as I do Dog that “most folks” WON”T know about you UNTIL that there Toaster Cozy shows up in Wal-Mart and they start askin, “Whose this Douglas Riley guy?” Now, Dog, don’t go spoilin Ducketts metaphor. Oh alright.

It’s a matter of time, in my eyes… like I said before, the love’s coming, we’re just in a current position of waiting, rather than reaping…

Pardon me Spin, ol pal for sortin usin yor own statistics in my discourse with Vic. But it is true whether at RW or here…anywhere’s I’d imagine that most of the activity comes when somebody percieves he or she’s got a carrot at the end of that ol stick. Dern us. It’s just like my momma used ta say: “Human beins? Why Bother?”

Oh there ain’t no question about which one. It’d have ta be my tribute to LSs special abilities as a member of the select set. “Both Ends of Love”. There ya go, pard. And thanks fer the thought, ol pal:-)

i’m going to have to place a big old fart sound here.. mixter has always had it’s ups and downs.
and always will.. i’ve found that mixter is a “face time” project, if you have the time to come here every day, more people will check out your stuff and see what you have to offer. take me for example, i havn’t been here as frequently as i used to be, and now unless your an old-timer here nobody even knows who i am, lol.
i guess i should get inspired here.

I was starting to think you won the 649 or something. ; )

i wish, but i did just get back from an awesome trip to whiterock, consider me a married man!! lol

Congratulations to you and the Mrs.!

I’m very happy for the both of you. : )

If the jist of your original message Doghouse is “why aren’t there more comments on my stuff” then I say if you want friends first be one. I for one know that there are a gazillion mixes I want to listen to and comment on but I need a certain frame of mind to do that these days and I want to be prescient in my comments, the bar here being set so high by some. Therefore if my stuff doesn’t get a whole lot of traffic I feel I can’t complain. The general rule, although it isn’t written anywhere, is that if you give comments and encouragement you will, generally, get it in return.

Now granted I’ll be the first to admit that there are some talents that are easy to support, say for example, the aforementioned Mr. Loveshadow, and there are others no doubt that one might wish to redirect to other pursuits. But you have to open your heart and your ears to find something to say and soon you will see that those you support will in turn support you. Sorry to put it this way but the old “you scratch my back I’ll scratch yours” didn’t get weeded out by evolution.

I am not for one minute suggesting that anyone here should be short of entirely genuine, I’ve been accused of being more genuine than some desire ;-). But spread the love people and it will come back to you.

Now there you go bein right again essssssessssssq, ol pal. Don’t thank I don’t know that I expect folks ta just flock ta my ol magnum opuses just cause they’re…well …er…mine an all and that ifn I had a decent, compensatory, colleagial, evenhanded, fair-minded, reciprocal bone in my body I’d favor ever body else with both my time and my ratins and reviews. But I don’t. In fact it’s probly better that I don’t rate and review scads a people as they would most likely just find me all the more off-puttin. Because my momma taught me (as any good momma would) manners. So’s Ifn I ain’t got somethin nice ta say about somethin I, generally, don’t say nothin at all. If that theres too hard fer a feller or gal to digest then so be it. But I thank, ifn one cared to go back (all the way ta RealWorld if need be) and check they’d see that what I DO say somethin about usually warrants it by anybodies light. And it is also true that I do not spend near enough time listenin to near enough mixes. Which, I thank, is most peoples problem. Except, a course for a few folks I actually admire although they do seem to be runnin constantly for hall monitor or class president or somethin. In any case it is my nature to ask more than I give and to take more than I need. I should be ashamed, I know. But I ain’t. Imagine that. Plus, not to blow smoke up yor bluejeans but I recently in a fitful dream had an idea about one a yor spoken word thangs and just what to do with it. You got any valium on ya? You may need it;-)

I like what CCM does and as an example of a site that’s “moderators” keep in contact with its visitors its first rate. This was the big failing of Realworld Remixed. They had no public face to relate to and whoever was in charge just paid no attention to the visitors or the sites potential. Consequently the regular gang in the main moved away. I still have a little place inside for it as it was there that I started playing about with this remixing thing and from this I have gained tremendously. However here at CCM the playground is so much better and allows the full creative juices to flow!

Doghouse’s requests are relevant as no matter how high and mighty we think this site is at the end of the day most people come here to show what they have done with the samples and do want a pat on the back. I don’t think it demeans the site to know how many people have listened to a mix or who might be online at any time.

CCM is great but it’s a toy to play with and an ego feeder. It has to be or why else do we keep coming back. If no one ever commented on our mixes would we keep trying?

I love it here and have found some great inspiration from listening to others and mixing things that in earlier days I would have passed by and sniffed very loudly at!!

Maybe in CCM’s new life it will become more relevant to the wider pro/semi pro audio,visual world but at the moment whilst it does feed other ventures they are to be honest small time and by other candidates from other sites who want a pat on the back.

There are some great talents visiting this site and each I am sure will have a different agenda for coming but the common thread is to get some reaction from an audience that has taken the time to listen.

There is nothing wrong in aspiring to higher ideals and trying to be different but sometimes the simple basic things are important as well.

I will now lie down so Fourstones can tickle my tummy!!!

Well and honestly stated DR…y’all need someone to scratch ya behind the ears ;-)?

In reply to you and RT below and anyone else from the “old country” that is still running comparisons, I don’t think they are useful. The only thing these two sites share is the existence of music for mixing and people who do the mixing. When I was halfway through high school I switched schools and being the sort of busybody that I am I got involved in all sorts of stuff at my new school and spent a lot of time telling people how it was done at my old one. This mystifies me because I didn’t like the old one much, but I digress. Some kind soul took me aside and said that it wasn’t helping me “fit in” for lack of a better word to keep talking about the old place so much and that I’d do better to see how things are done in my new environment. On the whole, and without patting too many on the back, myself included, the migrants from that website have done pretty nicely both in their contributions and deportment on this site and I am proud to be amongst their numbers. I think it would do us all credit to keep our eyes focused forward. This place is very much about the future. :-)

Wail, while I or others might have mentioned particular features of RW or other sites I don’t thank nobody in the right mind would want CCM to use them as a role model. Lessen, a course, they seek to develop a cesspool a wantin craveness fer some reason or other. PeeeUuuuu.

If this is about getting reviews then the stats are clear: remix more people = get more reviews, as in: use more samples. On the other tip, if you want to get your ego stroked, post samples and have them remixed. Other sites rely on download counts, reviewing and comments because that’s how you ‘show love’ (pardon the idiom essesq). Because everyone here is contributing to a larger whole the real thrill comes when someone remixes your stuff. I’ve asked this before and gotten the same answer every single time: would you rather be reviewed or sampled? I would trade every single review and recommend left for me for a remix of my material.

As I look over Doghouse’s archive I can’t find a single sample that he’s used from the pool. Nor can I find any stems that he’s posted to the pool so it doesn’t surprise me if he’s hit a ‘ceiling’ of sorts.

Reviewing, recommends and playlists are about discovery. If you, as an artist, also get a stroke out of it, great. But again, that kind of stroke is available on 1,000s of other music sites.

See, now yor schoolin me there Fourstones, ol pal. And I appreeeciate it. It ain’t that I ain’t interested in usin other peoples samples or nothin or in “postin stems” (hail, I don’t even know how or what that there is, really) but ifn I ain’t got the time ta listen ta leventy jillion chaffs ta get ta one wheat I probly ain’t gonna do the same when it comes ta “samples”. Really, I know I’m outta my element here (and not just in a couple “dance club” genres neither) I listen to them a cappellas and thank wail what kinda song can I make out of em that (for the most part) makes lyrical, musical sense and, when possible, makes em even more “engagin” than they started out bein. I ain’t really interested in gettin my little rounded scissors and Elmers glue out an pastin a bunch a somebody elses cutups together…not that I don’t appreciate the quality work done by others in this regard when I hear it (I stress the word quality). All that said, I’m old and old school I guess as I prefer to (again for the most part) actually play in all my parts and score em myownself. Ya see, I’m a musician…or instrumentalist…or player…whatever euphamism you’d prefer is fine by me. I am not a “collage maker” (again, whatever euphamism you’d prefer is AOK). Ifn we’re all just goin round glad handin and givin reach arounds to everbody and constantly remixin each other for it’s own sake that just seems like public masturbation ta me. It don’t have no point to it. And, like it or not, as in everthang in this ratty assed ol world they’s a purty pitiful chaff to wheat ratio. CC included. That’s why when some good feller or gal hears somethin by say, Loveshadow, it sticks out like a sore thumb. I won’t say it’s “better” cause that’s too subjective. But it is more proficent. More cohesive. Better mixed and arranged. Self-evidently. And should, by any lights be held in higher regard as both a benchmark AND and example of what ta strive for. I honestly listen to a goodly number of the very appropriatly named “editors picks” and shake my ol noggin in wonder. I cain’t fer the life of me discern any standard, objective criteria that binds em at all. To me its like yor sixth grade teacher just said, alright this week Bubby, Celia, Durwood and Skip are gonna be editors and pick the best songs out for folks. But when Bubby raises his hand ta ask what are the guidelines he should use or what are the things he should use in decidin what makes one better than another the teacher just goes, Oh anythang ya like fer any reason at all there Bubby, now shut up, will ya? Call a spade a spade is all I’m sayin. I don’t thank Loveshadow (or me fer that matter) need our egos boosted as they are already purty huge. Also I (and I imagine LS and some others here) actually make quite a good livin doin just this kinda shit day in and day out. We don’t need ta be here for no other reason than the fun of it. Hail, Shannon, CalGal and some a them others might gag ifn they was ta find out what gettin a quality track fully produced costs by us out where the rubber meets the road yet they get scads of em here fer nothin more than a “thankee kindly”. And that’s as it should be. I see now that CC is not geared for ol fellers like me. But I’m havin a whale of a time and I thank ya fer puttin up with my sorry ass. Go on with yor bad selves.

“proficient”, “cohesive”, “better mixed” and “self-evidently” sounds pretty damn subjective to me (or are we playing folksy-devils-advocate again - I wouldn’t want to be accused of misrepresenting your views twice in one thread). Not having an appreciation for the art form is fine. You don’t hear it? Cool. There’s plenty an art exhibit my wife drags me through that’s over my head. But I don’t stand at the door of the gallery insulting the artists and patrons.

If all you’ve gotten out of this conversation is that it’s for “it’s own sake” then I haven’t done a very good job at expressing myself and I’m sorry for that but this the best that I can do.

As always, last word is yours.

Wail, I believe I said I DO appreciate the art form when it is done well. Very much so, in fact. And as to the age old “subjective” “objective” argument I’d just say what my ol Daddy once said. “Doghouse, son, ifn everythang is art then ain’t nothin art.” They’s got ta be some (any) agreed upon mechanism by which one thang can be discerend from another and which one is “better”. Elsewise we are all doomed to be covered in manure 24/7. Also, tho I agree with ya about lots a them damn art shows. Speakin of manure.

actually we don’t agree at all. I didn’t say they were manure. I said they were over my head. There’s a difference.

The only reason I participate in these threads is for the larger edification of folks who might have the same or similar questions to the ones you’ve raised here. I’ve answered those to the best of my abilities so unless you misrepresent what I’ve said or continue to denegrate and condescend (sp?) the artistic process usedby musicians other than yourself I think I’m done here.

You are right, of course, it was wrong of me to, in any guise, condescend to anyone regarding their chosen method of expression. That is a line I should not have crossed. Please accept my apology. I will do my dead level best to see it doesn’t happen again.

Oh yea, I almost forgot. And don’t you worry none about apologizin ta me back for callin me a “taker” and sayin I was just interested in “gettin stroked”. Even tho it did demean me and was, well, sorta condescendin, hurt my ol feelins actually, but I got a big ol heart an I done forgave ya the minute ya said it :-)

Please don’t take my words or their meaning out of context. If you don’t have anything constructive to say then please take a breath. Or don’t. Either way, it’s time to move on.

First ol pal, you know what you meant. Second, I mean that in an instructive AND constructive way. Third I beleive we do agree on something…that EM needs to give CC more publicity, or have you changed yor mind on that un? Fourth, hey pot, this here’s kettle, yor black. I’m rubber yor glue, everthang you say bounces off me and sticks ta you. Neener neener boo boo. Or words to that effect Don’t worry I’m quittin typin now. Honest. How bout you? :-)

i think it’s pretty insulting to refer to “non-musician” artists here as “collage-makers” and if that’s how you view them, that’s part of the problem. and i’m speaking as a musician here. and dismissive and insulting can still be read through the hillbilly clutter, which hardly makes it more charming.

for perspective sake, i give 5-10 hours of my time every week, listening to just about every remix submitted each week, sometimes more than once, recording voiceovers, setting up the playlist, blogging about it, and i have never played (and never will play) one of my remixes on the cool music show. and i get paid nothing for my time. and i have a full time, 50+ hours a week job. why do i do it? to give back. because it’s not really about me to me, and i know that if people like the show, they will hopefully check out some of my stuff too.

i know you give back dawg, i love your remixes and respect the fact you play on them, and play well. you’re among the best producers here, you get plenty of cock-stroking by people, yet that still doesn’t seem to be enough for you. maybe giving back more than just submitting a remix will give you a different kind of gratification. maybe not.

the beatles said it best - the love you take is equal to the love you make.

Wail, I’m deeply sorry ifn I offend anybody with either my ramblins or my choice a “labels”. In all honesty I don’t know what the proper term is for, well, see I don’t even know how to define it without riskin more hurt feelins…loop assembly? While it is true I’ve taken a smart alecky attitude (which is my nature) I don’t mean to demean somebody who does whatever you want to call it (and I said as much to FS and told him to use whatever the proper euphamism was as I did not know it). Some a my favorite people here do it. And how. I’m even envious of em. Ifn I tried doin it I’d be henry-in-the-first-grade. I’d certainly suck at it. At first. But I imagine I could learn it over time as I got an ear for a groove an all. Sorta like folks who do whatever you want ta call it might or might not be able to learn how to play instruments and learn the why’s and wherefors a doin it like I do ifn they so chose. These are only learned skills. I will say this tho, it is harder and takes longer (much longer) to become a competent drummer who performs his or her part into a track than to insert 8 different loops which were made by a competent drummer into a piece of music. And I thank ya, like any sensible person would fer all the time yor puttin in here at CC. But as I said before in an earlier post, that there’s yor nevermind. You are only followin yor own self interest. And good on ya fer doin so. And I wish ta jesus-h-christ-on-a-soda-cracker you folks would get ofn this “strokin” bidness. If I’ve given anybody the idea that I gotta have that then they are as crazy as a peach orchard boar and not me. I KNOW HOW GOOD I AM, you numbnuts. Ifn I wanted adulation I’m smart enough to know how to go about gettin it instead a simply sayin what is true to me and shittin in my own nest all the damn time. I will state again for anybody who wadn’t listenin before: As crazy as it might sound to ya I do these here mixes mainly for the bemusement of about 4 or 5 other folks that I consider my peers. And, brother, I mean peers as it is defined in Websters. Not other folks that might be doin somethin similar to what I might only to lesser extent. It is my greatest pleasure to not only have met these people through this here medium but to know and be known by them as a peer. I am honored. And one, in particular, who shall go nameless lest his ol noggin swell up to the size of prize winnin watermelon at the county fair, can kick my rusty butt every day and twice on Sunday when it comes to production, mixin and what I’d call professionallism…tho I got him whupped on shear creativity, musical honesty and bravado…so far. It’s like everbody’s scared of admittin there might be someone or, hell, lots a ones, who can kick their rusty butt. I mean if everbody’s on the same rung of the ladder that there’s a ladder that’s fixin to collapse. Again, it’s like my Daddy said, “Doghouse, son, if there is no heirarchy there is only malarkey.” And, acourse, some a the best advice ever give by anyone came from that there feller in the documentary “Dirty Harry” his ownself who said ” a man’s got to know his own limitations”. And that’s what I meant earlier when I said I know how good I am. That’s quite a different thing than sayin “I know I’m good”. Just youtube Chuck Loeb or Matt Rollings or Jim Keltner ta name three and you’ll see what I mean. I’m a talented ol sob but couldn’t carry their jockstrap. They are NOT my peers and never will be. That’s my cross ta bear tho. All I’m sayin is don’t bullshit yorselves, chillun. Don’t be afraid ta see a thing fer what it is. Sorry again for any offense.

lol — I just had this flashback about somebody’s remix being called a “specialty mix” and the reaction that caused. :-)

Thanks ol pal. That means a lot.

DR

Actually MC Jack, I think it is insulting to use the term “collage maker” and assume it has a negative connotation. Anyone who has kids probably has come into contact with the illustrative work of Eric Carle. He is in fact a “collage maker” for real and I don’t think anyone would have the balls to say that he’s not an artist. His work is beyond enchanting.

Frankly the preceding post by Mr. Dog really hit a raw nerve for me.

The idea of “proficiency” is one that was recently introduced into our school system by the legislation called “No Child Left Behind.” The result of the need to show benchmarked performance on standardized tests means that our kids now spend mindless hours working on preparing for these tests rather than challenging ideas and thinking their way through those same hours. Our teachers are now straight-jacketed even more than they were previously as to what they can do with these kids in those precious hours they have them for instruction. I have no time for any system of measurement that takes into account only a test for proficiency, because effectiveness and proficiency are often not the same thing.

To be effective, a piece of art needs to elicit a response from someone who encounters it. If no one reacts in any way to something, I would say it isn’t art. So by my measure if I encounter something and it speaks to me in some way it is good, if it moves me more deeply, it is great. I don’t care how well the notes are played or whether they are played at all.

It makes me laugh that you cite LS as the paragon of proficiency because although he is technically one of the best producers to grace this place he also one of the most open-minded reviewers. He will frequently recommend or write a very strongly encouraging comment for a piece that has limited technical merit but makes a statement in some way or shows a desire to do more. I think he’d argue that a good artist will allow any message to get in to be processed no matter how it gets there because it all feeds the creative pool upon which an artist can draw. That is the magic of this place.

I agree also with Victor that the single greatest thrill on this site is to be remixed or used by a peer (lol this is the only place where you can be happy to be “used” by your friends). The second biggest is possibly to be able to remix something by someone you have come to know a bit better because of the sharing culture here.

I’d also add that going out and finding samples to use and then modifying them to fit a mix is a heck of a lot of work and involves far more artistic decisions (possibly) than just throwing your own riffs together.

Doghouse quit chasing your own tail and look forward, you might be surprised at what you see. We’re still pals, aren’t we? :-)

Oh hell yea. Looks like I still got the ability ta get folks all het up if need be, uh? :-)

It ain’t “dead as a doornail” no more!

You are 100 per cent on the money there RT, ol pal. I never (nor would I ever) say that the new methods are invalid or heritical. Hell, I use em my ownself on a regular basis. I still consider Jackson Pollack an important artist. Go figure. I would never try to argue about the “artistic process” else I’d be gainsayin some a my very favorite (albiet “primitive”) artists, i.e. Robert Johnson, Big Momma Thornton, Iggy Pop, Eugene Chadborne ta name a few. But all a them (even the super crazy ones) did, of a piece, produce ever bit of their own sound, i.e. art. Nowadays we just grab things “off the shelf” and “assemble” our music. Like I told Victor about his “so called” grand experiment to remix and share; that’s all well and good. I’m all for it. But I don’t thank there’s a person who’s got a functionin brain who could say that it’s a 50/50 proposition of listenin to say Sister Rosetta Tharpe sangin and playin her music versus listenin to how somebody stuck a sample of her into their magnum opus. Hell, it might be better, crazier, insert yor subjective adjective here. But it might also seem pretensious and contrived. And that’s somethin Sister Rosetta could never sound. As she is the real deal. There IS a difference. And there is also, as I tried my best to neutrally point out between the years of practise and natural ability it takes to be a killer player and simply stackin some loops from one. The end resulting art might be even better. But the process is night and day different. If folks can’t see that the “downside” of ubiquitous, maleable, affordable samples is making us, in general, more “talent poor” as regards performance then I feel truly sorry for em. Sure we’ve still got new young uns like Chris Thiele and such but they are the exceptions that prove the rule. Spit on me ifn ya like but I still say when everbody is an “artist” ain’t nobody an “artist”. Puttin the “means of production” into the hands of the people ain’t all that ol Karl Marx hoped it would be.

Well of course you are right when you say that putting all this technology at an affordable price in the hands of everyone can lead to indifferent music.

That’s why I said that the real measure of a piece is in the listening. True musicianship will always shine through and the bedroom cut and paste artists are only relying on luck to hit the sweet spot!

To me ccMixter has always been about community. A community brought together by a mutual love of music and the simple idea that we can make a better world by sharing it, listening to it, expanding on it, and making it accessible to all. While we should all aspire to be production perfect and musically gifted…the beauty of music is in the connection it creates between the creator and the listener

On a more personal note:
I’ve been reading this thread off and on. It has made me sad for I am that mediocre singer, terrible musician, novice songwriter, low budget bedroom recorder, “cut and paste” remixer enabled by inexpensive technology of which this thread refers to. I wonder now how long will it be before I am politely asked to leave because I don’t meet the “cut” for quality and talent.

After reading your remarks Narva I think I had better put my comments into perspective.

When I referred to “bedroom cut and paste” artists I was intending to highlight the fact that anyone with access to the technology can put together something and that no longer did you have to have access to expensive equipment and studio time to do this.

However no matter what tools you have at your disposal you still need to have something musically going for you to really get the message across.

I have always been a firm believer in the emotional side of music than the technical. Yes a good producer will make a great song listen better but if it is still a great song even a simple guitar or piano accompaniment will work.

Your work is an example of how the human voice on its own can have the power to make people sit up and pay attention and take that voice and develop a song with it.

All the mixes I have done of your work have come about because of the feelings that the vocal performance led me to.

So I am not deriding anyone for their efforts but just agreeing with DHR when he says that the current trend in technology will by its very nature allow everyone irrespective of their ability to become an “artist”. Within this group there will be good and bad as within pro work there is good and bad.

OK look. Although I’m not sure that folks have actually read through and understodd much of my ol posts on this here tangential, insanely misunderstodd thread let me just say for the record that I got nothin, nada, zip, zilch against anybody that makes music IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. What’s important is THE MUSIC NOT THE PROCESS. But any process should be able to be discussed, rationally and objectively and without anybody gettin their feelins hurt. Again, I APOLOGIZE TO ANYONE WHO I MIGHT HAVE OFFENDED HERE. I also APOLOGIZE FOR RESPONDIN TA QUESTIONS, MAKIN THIS THREAD LAST TOO LONG, AND FOR KILLIN THE LITTLE LINDBERGH BABY IFN NECESSARY! I MEANT NOBODY NO HARM. I AIN’T SAYIN THAT ONE METHOD OF PRODUCIN MUSIC IS “BETTER” THAN ANY OTHER. HELL, EUGENE CHADBOURNE PLAYS AN ELECTRIC BRA AND JUST RAMBLES FER GAWD’S SAKE AND HE’S ONE A MY FAVORITES. I ALSO THANK, SO’S IT DON’T BOTHER ME ONE WHIT TA SAY IT, THAT comparing the best traditional musicians
to the worst of sampling artists is an invalid argument, just as
irrelevant as comparing the state of the art remixer to the millions
of terrible instrumentalists posting to the Internet. ALTHOUGH IN ALL HONESTY THIS WAS NOT WHAT I WAS DOIN. I AM SORRY ALSO, I GUESS, FOR NOT ONLY HAVIN AN OPINION BUT STATIN IT HERE AS HERE IS NOT THE PLACE TO BE DOIN SUCH. NOW I’M ACTUALLY, HONESTLY, REALLY, NO JOKE, GONNA STOP TYPIN AND RESPONDIN TO BOTH STOP THE CONFUSION AND THE MISPERCEPTIONS. I HOPE YOU WILL DO THE SAME.

DR

Ironic really