Reviews for "These Are The Moments"
permalink Sat, Jan 9, 2010 @ 3:27 PM
correct me if i’m off the wall, but since Omni Vista admits there is no actual ccM source material in this track , wouldn’t it be better to load it as samples, or a demo, or a work tape? and, lacking ccM samples, should it be considered as an Ed Pick? panu
*** Topic deleted by author ***
As I have said this track is about 4 years if not more old and I have had several computers and crashes and do not have the original parts anymore as Loveshadow has said once it’s out there it becomes one big sample maybe you should have another category of upload on this site because it’s all about sharing ideas and just because it’s not short clips doesn’t mean it can’t be sampled by others.
I don’t know if there was or was not a sample used. I could turn any track or sample on this site to be ` indiscernible ’ and have done so many times ,that would would not stop it being legitimate as an upload , just because you cant hear it.
As Omni quoted the Hard Rain track as a source it appeared that there was some portion of it in the track and just because i could not recognise ( as i said ) it doesn’t mean it isnt there. So i gave him the the benefit of the doubt.
Whether its to promote a four year album is imatterial. Omni has now placed it into creative commons now for any one mess with and remix and to my ears there were more than enough `non vocal’ bars to make this a usable sample. More so than most people upload as a ` sample in fact.
So the tags of original and sample could be all thats needed.
It would be nice if he uploaded vocals and seprated samples but that’s up to him.
Adding tags of `original and sample’ is enough under what i know of the site.
There are plenty other `Originals’ on the site where often the way they are legitimised is a just offering a separate acapella. If that can be done then then adding other CC parts to this remix of is not needed by Omni.
However there is more than enough of this track vocal free to make something with. And as i have said its now available for anyone to use. So just tags would do in my opinion.
On the Ed pick matter then take on board my notes on the use of samples.
I like the track and the quality of it. I dont feel like doing a u turn on my choice in the light of no other sample material being used as i was under the impression that there might be some in here.
However if you want it removed , as you obviously feel it is not worthy or does not qualify then mail Artistech and i will stand by their decision.
I’m with Panu on this. Nothing personal against OM, who is a truly fantastic musician, but I think that the spirit of the site is to encourage genuine mixing rather than original material - Victor’s policy on this was a good one, and has kept ccM different in feel from other sites which do a different (a perfectly valid) job.
It may be that technically the track has Loveshadow as the source material, but it looks a bit like that’s a way of getting round the rules here?
Maybe there’s a way that OM can contribute the album in the same way as other artists have done, perhaps for a particular project?
For me, the ed pick looks odd, for the same reasons. That said - great track!
This is a good example of a fully mixed track that was uploaded as a sample, as opposed to a remix.
It’s too bad your track cause a bit of uproar, because it’s really good, and I think a lot of people would line up to work with it. I would love to do it myself.
My $0.02 is to remove this upload and re-upload it from the “sample” page, complete with the stems.
I do not have the “stems” as you call them as Loveshadow has said there is plenty in the track for people to make there own samples from but it does say on the sample box I quote “DO NOT UPLOAD FULLY MIXED TRACKS
Fully mixed tracks will be deleted without further notice.”
I believe this track should either be retagged as a sample or the source tracks/stems should be uploaded for use amongst the community to keep it categorized as a mix, unless it actually does use samples from the Loveshadow track referenced. Make sense?
I really appreciate everyone’s willingness to work through to a clear solution.
While we’re discussing this, I have 11 albums worth of material I’ve never released on ccM because I don’t have access to the source (stems). I believe ccM is all about sharing and I suppose any track could be remixed. I’m curious what people think in that regard, as it may help shed light on this situation as well?
Thanks Omni and Loveshadow for your patience…..this dialogue seems healthy to me even if a bit sticky.
permalink Sun, Jan 10, 2010 @ 3:46 AM
very nice chill
permalink Sun, Jan 10, 2010 @ 3:38 PM
Hey all -
Omni Vista - could you kindly please clarify, as the description is still uncertain for me to discern, did you actually use a sample from Loveshadow’s Hard Moonlight in this track?
Great track btw. We do try to be sticklers on the way music is categorized and utilized here, so thanks for your patience, everyone, while we all work together to find the best resolve!
“just so i can upload the album i hope this is ok?” gave some the impression you didn’t actually use the source, but just said you did to upload the album.
thanks for your patience. this community is really vigilant about the TOC. it is all about participating and working together. feel free to drop me a line privately so we can better discuss and clarify this right away.
i don’t see your email registered or i would contact you directly ;)
permalink Sun, Jan 10, 2010 @ 6:21 PM
I really like your track Omni Vista—obviously produced well and worthy of an Ed Pick as Loveshadow has decided to give it.
But in your description of why you’ve uploaded it, you cause questions to be raised, particularly your comment—
“I’ve used HARD MOONLIGHT by Loveshadow as the source material just so i can upload the album i hope this is ok? if not let me know.”
This confuses me, because:
1.) As I read it you seem to be planning to upload a whole album of material using Hard Moonlight as the source “just so” you can upload them as a remixes, when really you are not remixing, you are self mixing.
(If my understanding of your comment is correct then please read the forum post Why Can’t I Remix Myself? for the reasons why ccMixter has issues with self-remixing. There are ways you can upload mixes as samples, which Victor explains with efficiency in the post as well. Colab has suggested this as a way to remedy the current situation too. However, since you don’t have access to the original samples you used in your mix, it makes this uploading path difficult for you.)
2.) I can’t verify that you used “Hard Moonlight” in your mix by listening to it. I’ve listened twice now, and if you did use “Hard Moonlight” it is buried so far in the mix I can’t discern it.
(Now Loveshadow brings up a good point here—oftentimes mixers use portions of material in ways not recognizable to the original, and still the track is considered a remix. I agree with Loveshadow, though I believe ccMixter artists in general like to hear how they were placed in a mix, and when it’s not clear where or how their material was used—well, it’s just not as exciting ;-)
So the fact that it’s not possible to hear the source you used in your mix, coupled with your statement declaring that you’re using the source “just so” you can upload your track (or maybe even uploading a whole album) as a remix, makes me feel like your trying bend the rule in this situation, rather than trying to uphold up the spirit of the site—which as I see it, is to remix each other using cc licensed samples we post for use in remixing.
I would be happy to know how you used Hard Moonlight as a sample. You could explain your process in the “How I Did It” section of your remix page.
Also, I would, if in your place, go as far as recreating that sample if possible and uploading it as a way to say thanks to the community. Chances are, it would get used in future mixes!
Again, your track is top notch! You are a valuable member of the ccMixter community! These discussions help us all. Happy remixing!
I believe ccMixter artists in general like to hear how they were placed in a mix, and when it’s not clear where or how their material was used—well, it’s just not as exciting ;-)
You are in the dangerous waters of dictating what a remix should be here. A debate i have had many times. Its an assumption on your part. I dont care what my uploads ect end up sounding like. I for one dont need a level of recognisable `exitiment’. i upload so it can be used unreservedly and hope someone gets benefit from what i do. That’s what this site is about and for me it ends there.
really not wanting or needing to dictate anything here, so sorry…I didn’t intend it that way. Didn’t mean to speak for the site as a whole, just my humble opinion.
There is an excitement in this space of cc music that I am inherently drawn to, and this discussion, while not really a “review” of Omni’s mix, is helping me tremendously by reviewing my own perceptions of what the ccMixter community is about. Thanks for your points of view!
|MC Jack in the Box||
permalink Sun, Jan 10, 2010 @ 6:50 PM
i’m only going to offer up some historical perspective on this, because i’ve been around a long time, and this is something Victor could elaborate on more (if he wants to).
when ccmixter first started, what Omni Vista did (upload a full mix without any sample attribution) was ok. Not a problem. This was very early on when there wasn’t really much source to mix, so as Omni Vista correctly asserts, you could sample from the full mix.
At some point, this policy was sort of being abused by people just dumping their stuff into the archive en masse, but not really offering any stems to work with, just an “album” of their full mix tracks. In order to encourage the submission of stems and separated multi-tracks, the uploading of fully mixed tracks was disabled. This meant that in order to upload a track, it had to re-attribute back to something. Which is the way it works today. Whether that’s the way it should continue now that there are new administrators is another matter for discussion.
The discussion here really involves more of a policy decision/clarification and this decision isn’t reflective of Omni Vista’s track in particular, but of a policy moving forward.
If Omni Vista did use samples from Loveshadow’s remix of his original vocal track “hard moonlight”, and he’s attributed Loveshadow’s original track, I’m not sure what the problem is here (other than a judgement call of ed picking something with your own source in it but again that’s a judgement call, not a rule broken).
Loveshadow and Omni Vista are longtime contributors to ccmixter, and I’m sure no malice was intended, and no small animals or children were hurt in the process, so let’s all be friends again. :)
I was writing a lengthy reply to Spinning…. when i saw you had more or less said what i had written. I would add there are still several fully mixed tracks i know of on the site going back over the last few years ` untagged whats to be done with them . ? All Omni did was not fully understand the upload process but to his credit has placed his work into creative commons and even i have even been able to make a good sample pack and remix from it.
To me its totally unfair and a bit sad to have had this level of public debate over a single upload a matter that could have quite of easily been dealt with behind doors either by email , as i have with questionable remixes to admin over the years or technically as Victor used to do with adding or moving incorrect tags.
All this jostling, stamping of feet and taking sides is a sad reflection on the spirit of site.
I’m sorry this has spun out of control, although I’ve appreciated everyone’s concern and input.
I believe the confusion came from the way the description was phrased, which seemed to cause folks to question whether a Loveshadow sample was actually used. If indeed it was (which I’m gathering is the case), the upload as a remix and Ed Pick seem fine by me. If for some reason it wasn’t (like some folks may have perceived), tagging it as a sample, as Loveshadow suggested earlier above, seems fine by me as well.
I agree that Omni, Loveshadow, and everyone else on this thread for that matter, are all AMAZING contributors to ccMixter and I really hope we will all feel more connected after this little discussion. My apologies if anyone has been offended and my gratitude for the patience and participation of everyone. Thanks to Steve for his wisdom and input as well. (Victor is traveling and may not be able to connect for a few days…)
I’m ready to move on and just say, kick a$$ mix Omni.
Quote: Loveshadow…. I would add there are still several fully mixed tracks i know of on the site going back over the last few years ` untagged whats to be done with them . ?
just to also clarify this, it is possible to have historically submitted a remix, only to have the original source artist remove the source for some reason. if that happens, the remix will remain in the archive with no attribution. this is probably the case with most if not all remixes in the archive with no associated attribution.
for example, here’s a remix i did which featured a pella by Clarance Boddyker, which he has obviously since taken down.
and i just want to add that it’s good that folks like panu are protective of the nature of the site. i think for future reference, it would be great to keep this kind of discussion either offline (by flagging something or notifying one of the admins with questions or concerns) or bringing it up in a forum thread, just to keep the reviews on point (as j. lang would say).
permalink Sun, Jan 10, 2010 @ 7:29 PM
I’ve read the posts responding to this particular post and it was kind of a downer because:
1) He referenced ‘Hard Moonlight’ as part of the source material so that should cover any issues about not using samples from the site &
2) It’s really, REALLY good!
So, I dunno. I’m just gonna download this and enjoy this at my discretion before they choose to delete it. Great job, Omni! This is some sexy music you got going here! And a Happy New Year to you! Looking forward to the album!
permalink Sun, Jan 10, 2010 @ 8:09 PM
Apologies Omni, you certainly didn’t deserve this. Driven in part by my Ed Picking it no doubt.
For the record and in support of you, your voice and the production, its a well cool track and sample or no sample its worthy.
Mail me. LS
permalink Mon, Jan 11, 2010 @ 1:55 PM
I do my best not to stir the pot.However. First, Omni Vista, a good track, with a cool RnB flow.
The original language in the upload of the track leaves questions. I have much original material that, yeah, maybe I could stick a free sound sample into and call it remixed. But really, all in all, it is really a trust issue and there is no reason to think that you have violated any ‘rule’, however nebulous.
The real issue here is a confluence of interest, which a hair away can be perceived as a conflict of those same interests. I think that it is wrong for someone in the administration to ed pick a piece that contains their own material. AS much as I admire and respect Loveshadow, I disagree with this choice. And the person that suffers most is Omni Vista,which ultimately sucks because in the first place you were just trying to share some music.
Well Kaer i respect your view. But there is nothing of mine in here it would seem and on first listening is couldn’t hear what it was. However i trusted that there may have been and unlike others was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.
On first listening to the work done here it clearly exceeds the use of whatever `the sample was’ , i don’t actually feature in it do i, and so that work should be praised.
Let me also say there are a whole bunch of tracks i would have Ed Picked on this site and have not because of a conflict of interest either with my association to the mixer or my total commitment to what ever they produce. Many of those mixes have been left as no one else saw fit to pick them but i would have but i cant make someone else do it.
In contrast there are several picks that i don’t think should have been for a variety of reasons but i abide by others decision and their choice.
Conversely if someone had used a drum loop of mine and created a whole song that was really good from it should i not pick because of that.? Ed Pickers are doing the job of finding good tracks were not solicitors.
Let me also say openly i have had a few mixes removed from the site for illegal samples or otherwise. I did it by notifying the admin of which by the way i am not.
I didn’t publicly make a mixer feel he had done something wrong and drop a ton of shit on his mix like there is here. Those mixes were dealt with by Victor in every case and nobody suffered or even knew about them.
In this matter i openly have said i would agree with what Artistech decided and i would guess there has been a fair amount of traffic to them behind the scenes.
Omni has suffered as in this case as it should have been dealt with in the same way as myself and others have in the past. It was not. In fact i made an Ed Pick a week back that was removed did you see it ?
However i think there’s more damage by the comments suggesting Omni had other manipulative intentions by trying to bend the rules than by my mistake of thinking there was a sample of mine that i couldnt hear. Its an indirect characterization of a stranger. That’s something i would never think of any mixer as in truth there are no gains to be had.
As for the job of Ed Picking i wont be making anymore, and you are welcome to the burden of the task of listening to every submitted mix any day, just go volunteer i am sure you will do a splendid job. :-)
permalink Mon, Jan 11, 2010 @ 10:17 PM
Here’s a short anecdote. When I was in Oslo during the opening of the White Cube installation, people came up to me, curious about what’s so special about ccM. I’m not an official spokesperson for ccM so I wasn’t prepared and I haven’t been brooding so much about ccM, I just love it here, so I had to think for a while and I replied from a personal perpective, from the heart. I said, what differs ccM from other music communities is that there’s no cynicism or irony here. Let’s keep it that way. I love you all!
permalink Mon, Jan 25, 2010 @ 6:38 PM
This is like a cool breeze blowing on my face, I listen to a lot of intrumental on my home site, and this track just transported me and reminded me what it is about music that I love. I love the sound of the vocals, so full and comforting, reminding us to just breathe, beautiful. The progression is really nice, it has sort of a slight dark dub sound to, very electric but at the same time it moves so elagantly like the way the sun dances on the ocean waves as it is setting. Great song.
permalink Thu, Mar 25, 2010 @ 10:20 PM
Woof! This board sounds a little heated round here… I’m gonna do like “Switzerland” [as I’m often called] and stay neutral. All and all! …sweet ass mix, I tell you! However many bumps it had to jump [or is still jumping] to get here, I’m glad this sexy motha is here to stay. Omni Vista, you are savvy, you are chic; and this is now part of the savvy & the chic!
|John Louis Kluck||
permalink Mon, Jun 7, 2010 @ 10:07 PM
This is the kind of song you dream of being able to produce someday. Absolute perfection!