* copyright as well as the traditional publishing game are still very jurisdictional (different between countries).


-Would it not make sense for artists that release commercial tracks from the mixter to make the effort to transfer to ASCAP (as far as i know ascap allow the use of creative commons licenses?) Rights organizations provide a good platform for cafes, bars media to use artists content, yet mostly collect for major publishers. Where -ever an artist signed to a rights organizations outside the US goes rights organization are obligated to collect a royalty under the contract that artist signes.

* the creative commons licenses are accepted as ok by some performing rights organizations, while others seem to officially disallow it.


-Only rights organization in the US have an artist contract that allows the use of the creative commons license. My understanding of the Buma-stemra pilot project is that everything that has previously collected a royalty is considered a commercial use. The pilot in Denmark does not allow the user of the license to decide what a non-commercial use is.

So allow me to subjectively proclaim, that in my opinion the traditional IP (intellectual property) game is fundamentally not capably of efficiently supporting the modern realities of the internet, DAWs, remixing, etc.

-I agree, yet why join a rights organization that does not allow the artists to license their creations as they choose, if its possible to transfer or join one that allows this, is it worth doing so?

ccMixter (so far) is NOT a commercial publishing and licensing vehicle. It also does NOT keep separate track of traditional concepts like “publishing” vs. “mechanical”, but tracks a kind of full IP ownership.


-The Mixter looks like a good place to start some kind of publishing co-op? Or at least a collection of contracts that the remixers agree are fair for “songs” they work on.


-i noticed that the songwriter guild in the US manage publishing rights without owning any part of the copyright.


So imho, CG has done about as well as one possibly can trying to live in the new world and still leave the potential for revenues from the old world.

-The old world and the new world work together ok, when the artists have the choice to do with their creations as they want and participate with the old world, when appropriate.

Of course the really BIG question is, how much any of that really matters. How many artists actually make meaningful money from radio play?

-whats more important might be the freedoms attached to the artist contract that the artist signs. self published artists are doing better than they ever have previously (i reckon). times are good/better for some and worse for others. those dependent on the old system are having problems.

I’m not a lawyer. Do your own research.

Quote: jamyoung… when CG could have joined ASCAP …
last time I checked, ASCAP was “The American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers” (emphasis mine), and according to their “ Join ASCAP” page, you need “Your Social Security Number”, which would seem to be pretty much confirm what it also says on their home page: “ASCAP is a membership association of over 320000 US composers, songwriters, lyricists, …” (again, emphasis mine).

As it says in the beginning of the CG interview page, CG is from the UK. Many others of us are also from various countries around the globe. So I have no idea why you would suggest that ASCAP would be a viable possibility for CG and other non US artists here at ccM.

The publishing associations are national in nature, and yes, some of them are conflicted with CC licensing. If you live in one of those jurisdictions the old world and the new world don’t exist quite as peacefully as you seem to suggest.

Side note: even ASCAP is not exactly without critics.

Here in Canada, SOCAN even features a page full of warnings against creative commons licensing. And submitting songs to SOCAN pretty much transfers exclusive licensing rights for the song to them (assuming I understad their website correctly). I have no interest to give an exclusive deal to anyone who does not give me revenue guarantees.

Speaking just for myself, I would be delighted if the Girl Scouts sang one of my co-writes without fear of getting sued by ASCAP.

As prefaced in my first comment, none of my comments are intended to be legal advice.

Also - I’m not on the ccMixter staff, nor do I have any affiliation with the creative commons.

I am however a happy user of cc licensing, and a happy participant on ccMixter both as a song writer and as a remixer.

If however this thread needs to be nuked, so be it. :-)

you need “Your Social Security -Number”,


-artists from around the world are able to join ASCAP, they just have to fill in a w-8ben form and include it with a paper application. If you download the paper application, you’ll see this.

I have no idea why you would suggest that ASCAP would be a viable possibility for CG and other non US artists here at ccM.


-All rights organizations other than ASCAP (maybe BMI?) as far as i know don’t allow the use of the creative commons licenses.

-KODA (denmark) and BUMA-Stemra (dutch) do allow the use of CC licenses yet only the NC ones and BS see everything that has previously collected a royalty as a commercial use.


-What seems important is what the artist is able to do as a member of their rights organizations under the artist contract that they sign. Its worth reading the ASCAP bill of rights for ASCAP members. I called and asked ascap if i could use creative commons licenses and they sent me the ASCAP bill of rights.


ASCAP bill of rights state

“We have the right to license our works and control the ways in which they are used.”

“We have the right to choose when and where our creative works may be used for free.”

I’m not sure that any other rights organization allows this?

I’m not a lawyer. Do your own research.

“I asked for a license to use and sell the remixes, and in return I stated that each remix would be a co-write. I retain my rights to the original song but the remixes are new recordings with all new music and arrangements against my lyrics and melody. ….”

-What about a CC license and link to the mixter on the cdbaby link?

-Do the remix artists have the same rights that CG grants them?

-The way I understand publishing so far, 50 percent melody 50 percent words (for singer songwriter)? It seems a contradiction to be able to give co-write over a song and then be able to retain the co-write for the same tittle. Yet maybe you can?

-Would every remix have to be registered under a different tittle with the rights organization for CG system to work?

-If not, what of the songs that don’t make the final cut and that are not registered, yet used commercially in other contexts?

-As CG is a member of a UK rights organization that sees everything as a commercial use, how does this work for the 300 remixes using the song tittle and her name?

UK rights organizations see almost everything as a commercial use.

“i would give my songs to the CCmixter under a CC BY license (have/in process of joining ascap). Then i would like to buy the right not to have to attribute the artist =remixers and use the sounds within the recording and be able to do as i choose with the song, yet at the same time not limit the remixer to release the recording on the same terms.”

-I write songs mostly- I figure production people like to be paid, if an artist pays a bit and has good songs, things work better. Songwriters need to own their songs, to make them free and to have the possibility of getting a deal. The attribution aspect of the creative commons BY license is not clear, this means that when media pays for use of content they need a stronger contract. Thats the way i see it.

-It makes sense to buy the attribution and rights out for production of tunes and at the same time let the remixer of the song promote the song, under the terms of CC BY license. I would rather set a fee for each track and choose the tracks i liked best that were remixed through the mixter. Yet thats just the way i see it- maybe bringing dollar signs into the mixter is not the way though?

-I’m still thinking about it all though

I’m not a lawyer. Do your own research.

Just to be clear. You’re way out of my league on this. When you ask how, I say CalendarGirl. That’s about all I know. So I’ll stay out of this from here on.

In my opinion I believe you have very valid concerns but it sounds to me like you’re looking for something very particular.

I will say that things here tend to form out of necessity.

artists not based in the US using creative commons licenses might want to think about switching or joining ASCAP.

I’m not a lawyer. Do your own research.

Quote: fourstones it’s simply too dangerous for us to be pretending to have valid, legally binding advice in this area.
Peace,
VS

Well said. I think that if one is going to do a commercial release and one has legal questions, then one should go to an IP lawyer in one’s own jurisdiction. As Spinmeister notes, there are real differences between one locale and another.

Even if one is qualified to give legal advice, one could never get enough information about the issue in these little mixter forum boxes to give meaningful advice.

if i go to other places and bring up these issues, the isssues meet lawyers and projects get created. I reckon its important that people say what they reckon through their experience. I can tell you this though. I was a member of APRA and canceled with them and now join ASCAP. So i’m not pretending here, i have some real experience with this issue.

for sure i want to get active with the mixter.

i’m not a lawyer. do your own research.

Dude, we welcome your music here, we’ll be happy to get you some world class remixes.

BUT I’m asking you nicely, please, take this topic somewhere else. I’ve supplied you with some possible places, if they don’t work for you I’ll try to dig up some others.

I started in the music business in 1977 so we can whip em out and have a cred war or you can be cool and not insult our members (like you did above) because you disagree with something somebody said. Look around, we don’t do that here.

Was not intention to insult anyone here, just making some points about the license in response (from my point of view). Please no-one take it as an insult, for me its just about making information available to artists.

I’m really trying to be straight forward here, if its coming across the wrong way, excuse that.

For sure i want to bring tunes here, i’m just trying to figure out how it might work best from my point of view. Maybe i have to talk with a lawyer and get contracts made up, prior to getting on the path.

I added the line about legal advice, to prevent any problems.

I am a lawyer. I am sorry if it somehow seemed to you that I wanted you to do my research.

We welcome your uploads. We’re just careful not to give legal advice.

We’re just careful not to give legal advice.


-thoughts: the licensing is a major part of this site, artists understanding how their rights work in a commercial context needs to be discussed here and also with CC, i really don’t see any problem with the issuess being brought up here and on CC forums.

Provided people that read the forum understand that they should seek legal advice, or do their own research, is it such a problem? Not sure that many remix artists are going to be on CC mailing lists, to voice their concerns.

-is it possible to discuss issues of rights within Mixter forums?
-this post is linked to the new CC Forum, possibly questions about licensing could be directed to this link?

- Yes, an artist needs to know their rights, yes this site is sponsored by CC but and yes, I can see where you get the impression that that means we should have free-wheeling discussions about legal issues - and yet, we can’t and therefore we don’t.

- we do not have the resources to provide verifiable expertise to do so and we are not allowed to pretend that we do

- the issues at stake (unlike the best EQ and compression threshold settings) are too high to give off that impression

- CC sponsors other places on the web better suited to have these discussions where people with the proper experience and knowledge are chomping at the bit to help you with your issues.

- The way it has been handled 100% of the time in the past is that the album producer (including myself) has contacted the artist individually and struck off-site deals and we are not allowed to be any other kind of agent here.

- All I can do is offer to help you get great remixes and find those other places where you could get accurate answers to your questions.

This is the second time I’m stating these and I’m sorry you didn’t like the answers the first time but you won’t get any different ones here. You seem to be a ‘last word’ kinda guy and that’s fine, I will let you have the last word on this thread if you like but I’ve offered everything that’s within my jurisdiction.

Peace,
VS

i’m not trying to create any bad vibes (excuse me if i have) or change the way that things happen here. just trying to make sense of things in the context of what i do.

maybe i jumped in a little fast here, sorry for that.