Vic - the key dissonance was one of the main reasons to do this song. My hearing abilities are still the same. I’m not getting any beethovener than before :) Please listen again… (I do not question the note by any means, I just don’t want to be misunderstood - please don’t let me be misunderstood!)

actually I listened to it several times - what can I say, I think you and Pat Chilla are two of the top mixers on the site, but (imvho) I think there are others who pull off atonal/dissonance more consistantly than you guys (for now).

It’s totally possible there’s something going on in both cases that is totally over my head (there’s lots of room there ;)) in which case you can ignore my opinion whenever you do this kind of work.

Dig?

Victor, harmonically this makes sense, no doubt about that. Using the 3rnd and 7th as melody might be hard for people, but it makes sense in harmony, lot of jazz stuff uses that kind of melody to put it on the ‘edge’. it also makes it more punkish, which is totally cool.

I think it’s a matter of taste.

Quote:
I think it’s a matter of taste.

This is correct.

Quote: Victor, harmonically this makes sense, no doubt about that. Using the 3rnd and 7th as melody might be hard for people, but it makes sense in harmony, lot of jazz stuff uses that kind of melody to put it on the ‘edge’.

This is not. I wish he was using the 3rd or 7th. At 0:29 under the word "satisfaction" Brad is singing an F# (lays into it really hard) and the guitar is hammering away at an F below that. That’s a minor ninth. First used widely by French impressionist composers like Debussy (who probably heard it from some gypsy), then picked up by ragtime pianists and more sophisticated tin pan alley songwriters and ultimately made common by bop composers/ improvisors but in ALL cases, ALWAYS used in a turnaround chord, almost always leading to a resolution of a minor chord a fourth up and ALWAYS includes the 7th below the minor 9th interval to takes some of the edge off.

Typically the voicing is R-3-b7-b9

(If you play the 5th it’s typically rasied or lowered)

Laying into a minor ninth on the chorus of a pop song is not done except in the most extreme cases of very hard core industrial noise rock where the affect you’re going for is pain. Totally valid as long you know that’s the kind of reaction you want.

Personally I find it a very, very hard thing to pull off, some of the early German synth/noise bands in the 70s were fairly consistant making it work but mostly I find it distracting.

I don’t quite get it Vic. Are we into the future of the music or just into digging in the past? You try to decide what things are suitable for certain kinds of music. ("Laying into a minor ninth on the chorus of a pop song is not done …" (by the way - I proved it is done:))
But I assume this is just a history that likes to repeat. Remember, there were times they tried to ban rock’n’roll at all…

(Please don’t quote me out of context, the rest of the sentence explains where it is used and that it is totally valid.)

Just wanted to save place (…) The rest does not change the meritum

oh well then we’re not understanding each other — when I say ‘totally valid’ and I mean, er, valid in a total sense ;)

and don’t confuse my correction of Marco’s factual errors with a judgment on the usage of these sounds. He said you were using well accepted harmonies common in jazz, etc. I was citing cases, not telling you what you did was wrong (although I suspect you would really like me to say that ;))

You said you wanted to be dissonant (which I kind of assumed on first listen) and I accepted that and still do.

If you were trying to be romantic or sentimental then we can theorize about how long it takes today’s dissoance to become tomorrow’s accepted harmonies because that definitely didn’t happen in this peice

How long was it from the tomato-throwing debut of ‘Rite of Spring’ — which in fact uses minor 9ths to achieve romantic, if tense and overtly sexual emotions— to it’s acceptance as a ‘timeless’ classic?

Have you created a ‘Rite of Spring’ with this remix?

Did he knew he created " Rite…" back then? Did anybody? I just ment God exists in three persons, Vic. Up till now you exist only in two :)

P.S. I really like our disputes. They mean a lot to me!
U would never say I had been wrong ;)

"At 0:29 under the word "satisfaction" Brad is singing an F# (lays into it really hard) and the guitar is hammering away at an F below that. That’s a minor ninth. First used widely by French impressionist composers like Debussy (who probably heard it from some gypsy), then picked up by ragtime pianists and more sophisticated tin pan alley songwriters and ultimately made common by bop composers/ improvisors but in ALL cases, ALWAYS used in a turnaround chord, almost always leading to a resolution of a minor chord a fourth up and ALWAYS includes the 7th below the minor 9th interval to takes some of the edge off."

The bass and chords are mainly doing E and F#, not F. The track is in B-major. If the vocal is singing F#, that’s good.

The stuff you write about minor ninth is not true. In jazzmusic it’s mostly used as second chord (II) in II-V-I turnarounds. For example D-7b9 / G7 / Cmaj7

But anything can work. Playing the minor third of the second chord in blues, for example Ab over a F7-chord in C-blues, is very tricky, but still: can be done. Matter of tension and release.

Still matter of taste. I love Frank Zappa. And he did weird stuff with melodies and harmonies. God bless him, he changed the world by not doing something everyone was doing. Or listen to Prince. He does extremely weird harmonies. You might call some of them harmonic mistakes… but I love them. And what about Steely Dan? You listen to that music and it sound super slick, but when you look at the harmonies you will not get much sleep the next year, because some of the harmonies and melodies and just to complex to make sound slick… how did they do that?

jamais fin du rondeau?

paix, amour, art, famille
~claude