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Contests

teru
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permalink   Thu, Apr 13, 2006 @ 7:35 PM
*Warning this is a rant*

Does anyone else here feel like all these contests are purely 100% for promotional purposes only?

Promote this Magazine or Movie or Record Label. Is that all this is?

I see that each contest sponsor has a profile, yet they never leave any messages or comments. Not during or even after the contest is finished.

IMHO what made the Lisa Debenedictis contest great was the fact that Lisa took the time out to let us know she was involved. It made us feel we were making music not commercials for faceless corporations. (I know that’s not the case but that’s how I feel we are being treated)

I don’t want to loose these contests because it introduces us to a lot of great artists(and they’re fun) but at the same time I can’t help feel that we are all being used to generate free advertising for people who won’t even give us the time of day.

Contests are great but please let us know you are listening once in a while. I don’t speak for everyone here but not all of us here are looking to win contests but to share, learn and create.

*end rant*

Sorry I had to get that out.
shagrugge
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permalink   Thu, Apr 13, 2006 @ 11:47 PM
I was never around for Magnatune contest so I can’t really speak for that.

Fort Minor is a very promotional/commercial type contest…

While I have respect for Styles of Beyond…I’m not a Shinoda/Linkin Park fan at all…or a fan of lyrics that lack substance.

I’ve been wondering about the Fort Minor *prize* as well…it seems like Shinoda/Warner bros could pony up more than 1 turntable…how about a DJ package? (2 turntables and a mixer!!) I wonder if it will even come with a stylus and cartridge?

I don’t see the crammed discs contest being as much a commercial avenue as FM though…every contest is going to bring in a new element to the site and make the community larger.

The concern I have with the new contest is…

Ok so the winners get put on a CD and which is sold and proceeds go to CCmixter or Crammed or both?

What about samples which are BY NC?

Quote:

You are free to use other music licensed under CC BY or CC BY-NC



How can we use BY-NC samples if the CD’s are to be sold?

What am I missing in the meaning of noncommercial?

What is the justification for BY-NC, but also being able to sell?
cinematrik
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permalink   Fri, Apr 14, 2006 @ 10:27 AM
Yeah shag I’m confused about that too. For the Magnatune contest all that could be used were samples from the Magnatune catalog (which is Attrib-NC-Sharealike) and that made sense since even though the winners are being sold on a commercial release, every sample used was part of magnatune and gets a percentage of the sales.

But I don’t see how that’s the case with the Crammed thing, as if you used a BY-NC sample that they didn’t have rights too, that person should have to give permission for it to be used in what amounts to a commercial release. Right?

So I guess that means I’m just using the crammed material or my own stuff to be on the safe side!

Oh and teru I agree with your assessment of the commercial nature of the contests. Although I do think it’s still significant that artists on major labels are essentially supporting Creative Commons. I know they are generating publicity, but it’s still a good step, imho…

Tim
teru
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permalink   Fri, Apr 14, 2006 @ 1:38 PM
Thanks for your input guys.

I should clarify, I do not have problem with the contest being used as a promotional event. I agree it benefits Creative Commons, ccMixter and the artists, label, etc….

I just wish we could get something/anything to show that it’s not only about that. A little interaction to let us know they appreciate the work put into each submission. We are not kids sending in cereal boxtops to win a prize. Why are we treated as such?

For example, after the Wired and Magnatune contests, we were all left hanging for weeks. A post in the Forum from any contest representive to keep us up to date would have been a nice gesture. After the winners were announced a simple "thank you all for your submissions" would also have been nice(not as a Press Release but somewhere on this site).

I’m just asking for something a little more than the standard corporate practices. I understand they have businesses to run but in the end I think they would come out looking better. To me at least.
lo tag blanco
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permalink   Fri, Apr 14, 2006 @ 2:40 PM
I see your point, but, frankly, I’d be more interested in feedback from one of you guys than a corporate marketing team.

:)

Also, it could very well be that, in many cases, the actual artists don’t even know about what goes on here. This is the sort of thing that the promotional team executes. For any given tour/album release, there are hundreds of events like this.

That said, I do think that users of this site should make an attempt to send feedback when other users remix their work.

On the whole, I like the positive aspects of the contests more than I dislike the negative ones. It’s good promotion for the site, brings in new remixers (and occasionally a healthy raising of the bar), and injects a little competition into the mix.
shagrugge
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permalink   Fri, Apr 14, 2006 @ 3:04 PM
Quote:

Also, it could very well be that, in many cases, the actual artists don’t even know about what goes on here.



Agreed…I don’t fault the artists and it is cool that record companies are looking this way as a means of promotion. Somehow, I highly doubt the artists in the new contest made themselves ccmixter pages let alone typed up a philosophy statement about for it.

BTW…My manager says that from now on you all have to have your publicist contact my pr team through the proper channels if you wish me to review your tracks ;).

signed,

- DJ Red Tape -
lo tag blanco
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permalink   Fri, Apr 14, 2006 @ 3:23 PM
Quote: BTW…My manager says that from now on you all have to have your publicist contact my pr team through the proper channels if you wish me to review your tracks ;).

My lawyer says that your manager is full of cr*p, but is willing to have our people sit down with your people to reach an accomodation.
Trifonic
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permalink   Fri, Apr 14, 2006 @ 4:20 PM
Quote: I should clarify, I do not have problem with the contest being used as a promotional event. I agree it benefits Creative Commons, ccMixter and the artists, label, etc….

I just wish we could get something/anything to show that it’s not only about that. A little interaction to let us know they appreciate the work put into each submission. We are not kids sending in cereal boxtops to win a prize. Why are we treated as such?


I agree with your sentiments Teru, not so much for the previous contests but more so for the Fort Minor one. In the previous contests, each sponsor’s values were aligned with some or all of ccMixter’s values. WIRED champions cutting-edge technology… Magnatune is a label built around the creative commons principles… and "Copyright Criminals" is a documentary about the problems with current copyright law. In each case it made sense that these guys were sponsoring a ccMixter contest. Sure, they were promoting themselves, but they were also promoting the ccMixter/creative commons philosophy.

But Warner Bros hasn’t done anything substantial to demonstrate that they’re committed to the idea of creative commons. It’s EASY for them to post a track from their catalogue and give away one turntable. And that’s why their involvement feels like a pure PR move to me. Now, if Fort Minor releases their next album under a CC license, I might change my mind. :) But until then…

LT
fourstones
admin
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permalink   Fri, Apr 14, 2006 @ 5:33 PM
Man there’s a lot to cover, if I miss something let me know. (Sorry I didn’t get to this earlier but I had family business to attend to.)

Quote:
Does anyone else here feel like all these contests are purely 100% for promotional purposes only?


Guilty. ;) Tim got it exactly right (and I acknowledge your acknowledging that). If we take a step back and look at the bigger picture it’s easy to see that these artists are doing more than just promoting themselves (and don’t for a minute think that Magnatune didn’t benefit hugely from the Lisa contest).

These artists are nothing short of pioneers, they are forging the way for the entire industry to take note that remixing can be done in a sane, legal way that is does not make criminals out of the artists or the consumers.

Quote: IMHO what made the Lisa Debenedictis contest great was the fact that Lisa took the time out to let us know she was involved. It made us feel we were making music not commercials for faceless corporations. (I know that’s not the case but that’s how I feel we are being treated)

fwiw I agree with the sentiment, I would personally like to see a little more hands on involvement with the contests by the artists — it’s possible we were all a little spoiled by just how tremendously cool Lisa is.

But for now you just have to take my word for it:

The Fort Minor guys are extremely into the contest and very psyched.

The Crammed artists are extremely into the contest and very psyched.

While it’s tempting to be cynical and assume "they don’t even know what’s going on here" (that would be my outlook if I didn’t know better) the fact is they understand full what’s at stake and appreciate the enthusiasm and artistic output of the members of the site.

Quote: For example, after the Wired and Magnatune contests, we were all left hanging for weeks.

In the case of WIRED this is a slight rewriting of history. The fact is the judges were listening to the winners hours after we submitted them to them. There were a ton of judges and getting everybody’s vote count was done as quickly as possible (sorry, but I can’t imagine that any contest judging will ever be faster than WIRED.)

I personally, tried to be thankful and grateful as I could at the time and since I represent (for better or worse) all parties involved at the site I guess I could do a better job of that. Sorry.

The Magnatune contest took extra long because (as you know) rounding up all the winners to sign recording contracts took almost as long as the the actual judging. And to say that we never gave updates along the way is just a little, well, historically incorrect. I don’t have to time to dig up the forum posts both here and at the Magnatune site but, what can I say, we tried. (Sorry if this sounds defensive, I hear you and we’ll try to do better in the future.)

Quote: But Warner Bros hasn’t done anything substantial to demonstrate that they’re committed to the idea of creative commons. It’s EASY for them to post a track from their catalog and give away one turntable.

Last time I checked, Linkin Park sold roughly 35 million records. If you think giving away the studio tracks under CC forever for one of the lead members was an "easy" thing to do then all I can say is that you may have misjudged the enormity of what is at stake. Again, I don’t want to sound defensive and the last thing I want to do is diminish the feelings expressed on this thread, all I’m asking is that you guys take a breath and look at the bigger picture.

I have promised privately (and now publicly) that I will do everything in my power to prevent ccMixter from becoming a publicity pit-stop for C-list major label artists. I know what that’s about because I worked in the publicity departments of major labels for over 15 years. I will put up every road block and fight anybody who tried to do that to this site. You have my word of honor on that.

And again, I we redouble my efforts to let the community know just how the artists feel about participating in the larger CC, open music/music libre movements.

The question of BY-NC for Crammed is completely off topic for this thread (I think) and I’ll make sure we get answers for that in the next week (sorry it can’t be faster but I’ll be on road with marginal connectivity.)

Hope this helps,
Victor
teru
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permalink   Fri, Apr 14, 2006 @ 6:20 PM
Thanks LoTag & Trifonic too.

And Victor - exceptionally clear and very helpful. In fact all I needed to hear.

Please understand I was trying to make a minor gripe with the small hope that this message may reach those who are big and kind enough to share their talents with us to share just a bit more. In no way did I intend this to be a direct critism but more of a chance to make things better for future contests.

We are all very lucky to have what we have. To ask any more is just gravy. I just thought it’d be worth asking for. : )
Trifonic
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permalink   Fri, Apr 14, 2006 @ 6:36 PM
Quote:
Quote: But Warner Bros hasn’t done anything substantial to demonstrate that they’re committed to the idea of creative commons. It’s EASY for them to post a track from their catalog and give away one turntable.

Last time I checked, Linkin Park sold roughly 35 million records. If you think giving away the studio tracks under CC forever for one of the lead members was an "easy" thing to do then all I can say is that you may have misjudged the enormity of what is at stake. Again, I don’t want to sound defensive and the last thing I want to do is diminish the feelings expressed on this thread, all I’m asking is that you guys take a breath and look at the bigger picture.
Victor


Just to be clear, I have no beef with the FM Remix and the fact that ccMixter took it on. In fact I think it’s great for promoting CC on a larger scale. My comments were only with regard to how much various contest sponsors care about promoting themselves vs. CC vs. both (a relatively minor topic in the grand scheme of things)… and my point was that for the FM contest, it is less clear to me how the sponsor has a vested interest in promoting CC in and of itself. Not saying they don’t… just saying it’s not clear to me. At the end of the day, as long as CC is getting recognition, it’s all good. :)
fourstones
admin
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permalink   Fri, Apr 14, 2006 @ 9:27 PM
Quote: it is less clear to me how the sponsor has a vested interest in promoting CC in and of itself.

good point and a question I don’t have the answer to (having worked at these huge labels I’m sure there are multiple/conflicting answers ;))

What I do know is that it was not easy, for either the label or the CC folks who negotiated the deals.

Quote: At the end of the day, as long as CC is getting recognition, it’s all good.

fwiw, I know that you, Tim and teru "get it" ;) I just felt like I had to put this conversation in context for the 1,000s (!) of folks who have signed on since each of you have won a contest (or two ;).

Seriously, this thread does raise good points that have been taken to heart.

Thanks,
VS
gurdonark
admin
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permalink   Sun, Apr 16, 2006 @ 3:51 PM
First of all, great comments from everyone. Even though the comments are not all in agreement, the focus of the debate is a meaningful and well-presented one.

I am grateful to Magnatune, Lisa, the makes of the Copyright Criminals film, Fort Minor and the Crammed Discs artists. I don’t begrudge anyone anything.

I think that Victor’s point is a very good one. I am sure all the artists and people involved are completely psyched by the contest, and by the site.
If I were one of the Fort Minor people, I’d be ecstatic that hundreds upon hundreds of their fans cared enough to rush over to this site and make entries, ranging from the most polished to fun garage stuff. I know that the ccmixter/magnatune connection is great for both sides, and it certainly is wonderful for me as a hobby remixter.

Victor’s right. We should not be spoiled merely because Lisa is so generous with her time and enthusiasm.

I see the Crammed Discs contest as important, because it is a genre/style change for the board. Will it give those worthy artists more exposure? I hope so.

But I do have a wish list. Here is my wish list:

MOST IMPORTANT: I wish all the magnatune library were in the sample pool. Great artists signed since the Lisa contest would be a delight to remix, and the pool would make attribution easier.

The rest of the laundry list?

A. I’d love to see a contest in which an artist of the A, B, C, or indie cult status list provides an a capella on a BY basis, and all entries, similarly, must be on a BY basis.

B. I’d love to see an artist who is more purely ambient (obviously enough). I am not losing sleep over this one, though. Eventually, I foresee a day when a mixter imitator caters to the odd ambient community, which will no doubt be great fun (and also spare the poor fellow who’s stuck with giving me "1" ratings lately, in a useful crusade, which, by the way, helps keep my ratings about where they should be, and thus are in a way constructive).

C. I share Victor’s desire not to see contests
degenerate into a C list "star-power" (or lack thereof) glorification,and I appreciate everything Victor does on this board, in its design and its amazing functionality (I also wish I had his sense of pitch and key, but that’s a longer post). But I’d love to see a capellas, guitar solo samples and rhythm tracks posted BY or BY-NC by C listers, B listers, and, someday, even an A lister or two

D. Notwithstanding C, I see this forum as one key battleground in the struggle to see good music as something that can percolate up, and not merely trickle down. I love to hear "State of Everyday Madness" evolve, and realize that not 1 but 4 mixes (at least) of this song are better than any new "A" list song I’ve heard this month. I’d love to see a consciousness that mixterism is not dependent on some Watchmen comix conception of "rock stars" and "hip hop giants",but that we are part of actual Creative Commons revolution.

E. I’d love to see the board evolve in more directions, including contests geared to genres not usually seen here. Notwithstanding B, I don’t mean ambient, because ambient is its own little universe droplet in some respects, not a large cup of tea. I mean instead that I’d love to hear a folk contest by a major cult folk figure. I’d like to hear from a dinosaur rock band, a contest based on a dozen samples by a great jazz artist, a concert based on Motown or Stax. The world is more than hip hop, techno and even ambient, no matter how much difference the first two of those genres have made to remix culture.

But let me be clear. I think these contests are a great thing, even if "Remember the Name" is not my favorite set of samples or music. I appreciate the generosity of the artists. But I also hope that the sponsors have a vested interest in promoting themselves, and that they see CC as a key player in that interest. That’s a subtle sign that "we" are winning, if I can be arrogant to group myself in the "we" category, along with the hard-working CC board.

This board has nothing but possibilities. It is an amazing place. If I had web skills, I’d imitate it, so that experimental artists have additional mansions and everything is ATT only without the NC.

The board has become a cornucopia of features. I also realize that at this moment, I could download at least two dozen CDs of material absolutely free better than most commercial CDs I bought last year.

This thing is a wild and unruly virus, and I, for one, am glad I caught it like a subsynth wave with the EQ burning red.
cinematrik
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permalink   Mon, Apr 17, 2006 @ 11:09 AM
Gurd - (can I call you that for short? :-)

You have some great points!

I would like to say though, that for me, I’m more interested in taking various styles of music and blending them together. What I mean is, if you want to do crazy ambient - then tweak the samples so much that you come out with an ambient tune! I’m more interested in hearing something like that done with remember the name for instance, than to have to go over to an all ambient board just to hear it. The same thing with other styles. I think one of the strengths of ccmixter is that we all have our own influences/styles, and to me it’s cooler to hear those styles "imprinted" on the sample material rather than vice versa. I mean, most people who are successful remixers have a signature "sound" that is consistent whether they are remixing reggae, rock or hip hop. So I love your ideas about getting folk artists on here, etc. but I love them because I’m looking forward to hearing that folk mandolin mixed with ambient or idm or whatever.

I think that’s why I’d love to use more of the Magnatune samples for stuff because I love using the choir samples and the classical samples and the ethnic samples and mixing them together into something different. For me I wish I could use them in every contest, or mixed with different samples. I would love to suggest that Magnatune just have an ongoing "contest" - maybe they pick the best remix every month and put it on their site or continually put up a new "single" that they’d like remixed and release it with 2 or 3 remixes every couple months. I think that would really get people involved more with magnatune as well - and we could use those lovely samples all the time!
gurdonark
admin
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permalink   Mon, Apr 17, 2006 @ 7:40 PM
Gurdonark is actually short for “Gurdon, Arkansas”, my long-ago home town, so Gurd is fine with me.

You make a great point. There’s a lot to be said for blend and cross-genre. Thanks for chiming in.
oppenheimer
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permalink   Fri, Apr 21, 2006 @ 4:28 AM
Hey, everyone. Eric from Creative Commons here. Wanted to offer some clarification, as the question below is a very good one.

You can use BY-NC samples in remixes that you enter into the Crammed contest, but if you are selected as a winner and want to enter into a commercial licensing arrangement with Crammed and have your remix included on the remix EP, you must get the permission from the copyright holders of the BY-NC samples you used in order to do so. The safest bet, obviously, would be to proactively approach the artist who owns the copyright to any BY-NC samples you want to use ahead of time, in order to give them a heads up.

Thanks for bringing the issue up — we’ll make sure to draft the rules of future contests with this question in mind.



Quote:
The concern I have with the new contest is…

Ok so the winners get put on a CD and which is sold and proceeds go to CCmixter or Crammed or both?

What about samples which are BY NC?

Quote:
You are free to use other music licensed under CC BY or CC BY-NC


How can we use BY-NC samples if the CD’s are to be sold?

What am I missing in the meaning of noncommercial?

What is the justification for BY-NC, but also being able to sell?
shagrugge
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permalink   Fri, Apr 21, 2006 @ 3:37 PM
cool thanks for the clarification, makes sense now and hopefully artists who get sampled are ok with getting used in a contest entry.

Maybe there should be a new license BY-NC-CCContest.
- A derivative work can be used in a site sponsored contest - ;)
MC Jack in the Box
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permalink   Mon, Apr 24, 2006 @ 11:24 PM
i’m watching the NBA playoffs (clippers and nuggets) and i keep hearing them drop samples of "remember the name" into the halftime highlight and commercial spots.

i just thought it was both funny and on point :)