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Why is the quality of music at CCMixter so high?

Admiral Bob
permalink   Mon, Oct 18, 2010 @ 10:01 AM
I’ve read Victor’s e-book, and I know that quality is not an accident at CCMixter. Things like the recommend button, Dig, and the Ed Picks are all designed to keep the site from being mediocre to visitors.

But none of these things explain something I found recently. I spent some time listening to Looperman, and it is an experience more typical of what I usually find at music sites. There is some really good stuff there, but boy do you have to hunt to find it: they’re buried in a a sea of pretty average and less than average loops.

If you listen to both the remixes and samples added here, the quality ratio is very high. Most samples added are listenable, and I would say about half of them are really good: clearly recorded and highly useful bits. And as for remixes, the Ed Picks barely scratch the surface of the site’s good music. It seems to me just about one out of every two remixes I catch is something more satisfying to listen to than what you might hear on a formula pop or alt-rock station. (It may lack the polish of such material, but tends to make up for it in creativity and in intellectual stimulation in pella lyrics.)

Why are we getting so much good stuff? Are people who might post Looperman-grade stuff scared off by what they hear on the site, or what? Not that I’m complaining at all, but I’m sure there must be a reason for it.
Abstract Audio
permalink   Mon, Oct 18, 2010 @ 12:17 PM
Good question, altough I think looperman has enough qualtiy, you just have to know where to find it. The diffrence between the two for me is here I get more ‘acoustic-type’ and at LM more ‘electronic-type’, I mean that it sounds like that.

The reason for the high quality here, what I think, is the way this site is set up. It’s only about the samples/remixes, it looks even a bit boring. There’s no ‘bullshit’ forum that attracks people that only full around. The only way you can join the community is with quality, otherwise people will ignore you. Ad good stuff and good replys and you get some response. I think that scares some people that are not really serious away.
Another key thing are the playlists and podcasts filled with the best songs of this site. You say it doesn’t explain the quality but I think it has effect, for me it does. A bit like you get what you give (or hear).
For example the last secret mixter I had to remix sackjo22, wich made me a bit ‘scared’ because of her level quality. But in the end after a few trys I made one of my best tracks.

One thing I dont like about Looperman is all the demands they have with uploads and no remix rules. Only 128k music, small samples/stems but no ‘samples used from’ option. I feel more free over here and to be honest I only upload samples here because I know when it’s used.
Abstract Audio
permalink   Mon, Oct 18, 2010 @ 12:35 PM
where can I find that e-book?
permalink   spinmeister Mon, Oct 18, 2010 @ 12:44 PM
It’s called ccMixter - a Memoir by Victor Stone (who made ccM into what it is, although he always takes much less credit than he deserves)
*** Topic deleted by author ***
permalink   MC Jack in the Box Sat, Oct 23, 2010 @ 10:05 PM
Quote: colab

So perhaps my point is this: some of my favourite music I’ve come across at ccmixter, and that ain’t half bad. :)

I’d take this one step farther and say part of the reason that you like and listen to this music so much is that it is both good, AND the artists are accessible as peers. I might like the Beastie Boys, but I don’t interact with them the way I do with folks here. And the support is reciprocated for the most part, which is why we have a “community” and not just a website that people submit music to and download from.
permalink   Tue, Oct 19, 2010 @ 9:31 AM
Thanks for starting this discussion Admiral! I believe there are a number of reasons why quality music can be found at ccM starting with the community which is inherently supportive and encourages artistic growth and development. There are a lot of talented people in the world. I believe that, at least for some of those that land here, the creative exchange and the opportunity for feedback at ccM is nourishing, positive reinforcement so one wants to keep doing more. The members of this community have varied musical interests, so that artists with different styles and approaches still find supporters. During the 18 months or so that I have been involved with ccM, not only have I observed growth technically and artistically among the mixters, but personally as well. At one time, if you asked me what a remix was, I wouldn’t have be able to tell you; now the thought of doing my secret mixter remix is absolutely thrilling! I think we have historically been lucky to get “professional” artists involved by contributing samples that enrich our sample pool, and which establish a technical benchmark to be achieved. (It would certainly be nice to get some more!) And while we have a lot of “non-professional” artists contributing — folks with day jobs,school schedules, families — clearly, we are no less serious about music making than the pros. Sure there is plenty of drek that is hard to listen to, but there is also an impressive amount of wonderful music, sonic textures, bits and pieces and compositions to continue to discover. I would love to see the quality of music/samples continue to improve as folks become more technologically adept. By sharing our “how I did it” stories, using the forums, and freely sharing information, I am confident that can, and is, happening. While I am not so intimately involved with other musical communities, I am convinced there is something very special about ccM. The way in which our community comes together for creative collaborative events is extraordinary! I for one am so very glad, and grateful, that I found my way here!
permalink   Tue, Oct 19, 2010 @ 10:31 AM
I can’t comment much about the relative quality compared to other sites, because I haven’t done much meaningful snooping around elsewhere in a very long time.

But quite frankly I find a huge range of quality in all 3 main areas of ccM: instrumental samples, a cappellas (pells), and remixes.

For remixes, fortunately the recommends () help to sort out some of the better from some of the hard to listen to.

To find good pells, it’s probably easiest to start with the “featured” one’s, and then peruse those artists’ remaining uploads, even if those weren’t specifically “featured”.

Finding good instrumental samples may be the hardest, probably because they just don’t get that much editorial and ratings attention. And arguably they are a little less important because there’s such a wealth of commercial sample libraries available for people inclined to spend some money on that sort of thing.

However it will be interesting to see how ccM evolves in the presence of many more remixing sites than ever before, and the increased positive press and attention that the Creative Commons organization is giving to sites like indaba, who appear to be quite well financed compared to ccM.
permalink   Admiral Bob Tue, Oct 19, 2010 @ 11:45 AM
Indaba has an interesting model, which appears to be carefully designed for success the way Victor planned ccM. It is a very different model, in some ways, so it will be interesting to see what happens.

There are a few folks over there from here. I’ve seen Scomber. I’m over there too. Haven’t tried anything yet, though.
permalink   Snowflake Fri, Oct 22, 2010 @ 9:01 AM
in regards to CC, i met with them last week in their offices in San Francisco. they are true supporters of ccMixter and we discussed several ideas on how to more closely work together in the coming year.

ccMixter is a nonprofit site. no ads. no charge to musicians. no charge to listeners. that certainly makes us different from other sites. maybe keeps us less ‘glossy’ but I think it actually makes us a stronger community.

i see ccM as the place where music is created. musicians that collaborate can take their music and sell/market it where they please, with each other’s permission and appropriate license. as an artist, i have my music on as many sites as i have time to manage. why not have your album in every store in every city (to use the old model as an analogy)?

thanks for your input.

where would you like to see ccM go in the future?

permalink   timberman Sat, Oct 23, 2010 @ 12:58 AM
Where should ccMixter go in the future?

I think one of the key focus points when setting sails for the future is how to maintain and nourish the spirit of this community as it’s the most important asset to speak business language.
I’ve heard quite a few people say that the reason they stick around is the almost zero negative attitude here.
If you ask me, the spirit of a community is as delicate and vulnerable as the most fragile flower. I don’t think I’m the only one who’s left a music community before because I’ve felt hurt or because of anger or frustration. If the spirit changes and people start to behave like I’ve seen on other sites, ccM will be dead in zero time, that’s how valuable this asset is.
Maybe it’s about time that ccMixter start thinking about developing a set of core values. Just like businesses and corporations do. Once a code of conduct is developed and clearly communicated, we will have a less vulnerable platform that will help maintain the spirit and the ethos intact and not so dependent on the regulars.

From this platform, any new technical, tactical or strategic development of ccM will be a piece of cake because when we know what we are it’s easier to know what we want to be.

And it’s a fun project. What is the spirit of ccMixter? What are our core values? How do we behave here? How do we want to be percieved by the occational visitor or a new member?
Just raising the awareness of the importance of this would be a huge leap forward.

I haven’t read Victor’s e-book so I don’t know if these aspects are covered there.

Just a thought
permalink   Snowflake Sat, Oct 23, 2010 @ 9:14 AM
hey per,

this is a great thought and idea. and i agree. to me what makes ccMixter so great is WHO more than what.

i’d be curious what others value most, and what they believe we can do better, while still honoring our spirit of creative, positive cooperation.

i believe victor’s memoir should be a cornerstone of our community. Victor is the ‘father’ of ccM and built our core. his wisdom should not be undervalued.

what if we started with just an idea for a sort of ‘mission statement’ in the words of business. but i’d prefer to call it something more artsy.

permalink   timberman Sat, Oct 23, 2010 @ 9:32 AM
Hi and good morning, Emily.
Agree “Mission statement” is a bit pin-striped. Maybe “Who we are and why we are here”:)
permalink   Admiral Bob Sat, Oct 23, 2010 @ 10:39 AM
I agree with Per about communities being vulnerable: I’ve been part of some pretty tight knit groups and/or sites that split apart quite spectacularly and fairly suddenly. My impression is usually that something about the sites or changes of the sites are often at the root of it.

Although these groups all followed very different models, and CCMixter may not even be prone to some of the challenges that arose, I think it actually might do to study some of those and wrap them up as case studies. I’m going to do a bit of work on this. It might give us both positive re-enforcement of what’s being done right, as well as some warning signs of the kinds of functions/features in a site might damage community.
permalink   timberman Sat, Oct 23, 2010 @ 11:07 AM
Hi, Bob,
You are completely right about changes of sites risking to deflate a community but also, over here in Europe, I’ve seen people forming groups, starting to be rude to eachother, ignoring music from, or even worse, harassing certain members. The risk of a similar behaviour here is non-existent at the moment. That is why the job should be done now and not when it’s too late. As I wrote, I think a common communicated value platform would be a good idea and it would make it so much easier for ATM to develop the site without risking to disturb/dissapoint the community. Very generous of you to do a bit of work on this. Let me know if you need assistance. Sometimes I’m generous too:)
permalink   spinmeister Sun, Oct 24, 2010 @ 2:47 PM
Speaking of disappearing communities: Does anyone know whatever happened to It was started with quite a bit of fanfare and promise as a community site, financed by a commercial entity. Things were going gangbusters including remix and song contests and quite a few music makers collaborating. The tone was generally warm and friendly. Website software was continually being developed. And then the website improvements slowed down and eventually stopped. And one day the site just went off the air. Gone is all the music it hosted including quite a few remixes, many interesting forum posts, the reviews, the ability to contact participating music makers. Just gone.
permalink   timberman Mon, Oct 25, 2010 @ 2:04 AM
The parent company of mi7 went bankrupt back in april/may 2009. Their main business after all was selling software and hardware for music production. Didn’t go as planned. Also, one of the major owners of the parent company is involved in a financial crime investigation. Stupid Swedes….
permalink   spinmeister Mon, Oct 25, 2010 @ 2:11 AM
Thanks for that info, St.P.! I had never been able to find anything in my google searches.
permalink   timberman Mon, Oct 25, 2010 @ 2:16 AM
Start searching in Swedish:)
permalink   spinmeister Mon, Oct 25, 2010 @ 3:53 AM
unfortunately this is the only Swedish I know :-)
permalink   timberman Mon, Oct 25, 2010 @ 4:38 AM
I guess I asked for it
permalink   Subliminal Mon, Oct 25, 2010 @ 8:47 AM
I too wondered what had happened to them. That community was the first I became a part of and it led me to ccmixter. So I guess it has served its purpose. ;-) I am still in contact with two of the guys I have met there (apart from those that can also be found here).

I do think that the contests took away something from what made that community great, because it attracted a lot of people who were only in it for the contests and not for the community in general.
permalink   Abstract Audio Mon, Oct 25, 2010 @ 4:17 AM
So far I find it a really interresting topic, I also started on that E-book. It’s for the first time that follow this process of ‘site soulsearch’ first handed. It gives me a far better understanding in why some decisions are made and the result of that. It also makes me appriciate this place and those working on it much much more. Respect to all of you for that!!
This year if been busy figuring out what my personal idea is about (my own) music and my goals will be. And a lot them are similiar to ccmixter believe. I feel at this is point I need to figure if and how I can contribute on this. I miss the training and knowledge to operate on the level alot off you do, but I have to start somewhere.
Maybe some of you can share some thoughts or have some recommendation on readings? I don’t want spoil the topic so please pm on that.

Thanx and good luck on setting up those strateges
permalink   vo1k1 Sun, Nov 14, 2010 @ 7:43 AM
Indaba is really interesting. I just started an account over there. If ccmixter did not exist, I’d probably be most attracted to Indaba over other musician/producer sites. They do a really nice job with their look and interaction design, and maybe their business development (or maybe the celeb remixes are turning some favors in?). I like the chaotic dysfunctional dream / free and liberal dinner party vibe of ccmixter. I need to work on my online participation - my offline participation is OK, I listen to a ton of ccmixter via my ipod. I ramble. But, I’m pretty certain that ccmixter has unique core features. There used be interesting comparison data from alexa when comparing ccmixter, indaba, soundcloud, etc. - but the alexa site navigation lost me this morning.
permalink   Fri, Oct 22, 2010 @ 9:50 AM
dear bob, i agree that the Ed Picks don’t begin to scratch the surface of the quality music at ccM. last week i met with Intel Ventures, and they asked, so where do you find the music you listen to? i said, ccMixter of course! i noticed they wrote down the link :)

i can’t speak for everyone, just myself. but one of the main reasons i make extra effort, to be certain my pellas and remixes are the best to my ability, is because of the interactive aspect. if i know someone else is going to be using an aspect of my creative recording, i want to give them the best i’ve got. perhaps it is this sentiment that drives the quality for others as well?

MC Jack in the Box
permalink   Fri, Oct 22, 2010 @ 7:24 PM
yeah, having been around since pretty much day 1, I think part of the reason why the quality is high is based on a number of factors. As Colab pointed out, there’s no “ulterior motive” here really, other than a bit of friendly ego-stroking. We do remixes because people put up great samples, and it’s reciprocated by people who put up some great source after they’ve heard what can be done with it. Yin and yang, ebb and flow, it’s really “community driven” in the truest (and most unselfish) sense.

And Victor ( fourstones) does deserve alot of the credit, not only for building a framework and architecture for the community and guiding the principles from the very beginning, but also for being a complete hard ass reviewer who probably scared alot of the early submitters away.

I know he’s not around much anymore, and alot of folks I’d credit with helping to build the community have moved on, but just like I mentioned earlier with ebb and flow, now we have people like Emily, Susan, Jason, Mikael, Per, and many other fine stewards who carry the torch moving forward.

And there’s still the funky bunch like me and Lang stickin around. We ain’t going anywhere.
permalink   Sat, Oct 23, 2010 @ 11:11 AM
Quote: quality is not an accident at CCMixter


I wanted ccM to have a “culture of quality” where artists felt a need to up there game on every upload. This was, in fact, not an accident and very much by design.

Since the beginning of ccM i talked with just about every person that runs a major music site out there and you might be surprised to find how few of them made quality a focus of their mission. They simply assume that wisdom of the crowd would kick in and stopped thinking about quality after that.

Wisdom of the crowds is a great solution when the problem is as focused as a lack of wisdom (e.g. bug free source code.) In those cases it’s OK if 99% of the submissions suck as long you get the One Right Answer.

By contrast, I made quality a key mission from day one because I wanted the percentage of uploads that were listenable to be very high.

The means to achieve this does not involve a lot of voodoo. Just have the best catalogue of a cappellas on the web. If you want to keep the quality of music high here at ccM, then make sure to keep a steady stream of amazing pells.

All the other stuff mentioned here about friendly, supportive atmosphere makes it a neato, groovy place to hang out but doesn’t actually affect the quality of the music. As MCJITB mentioned above, a lot of lessor quality musicians were “scared away” when I used to give honest, critical reviews.

Great vocals attract great producers which in turn attract great singers in an upward spiral. Seed the vocals and the rest will follow.

btw thanks for all the kind words in this thread. my head, she has swelled.

permalink   timberman Sat, Oct 23, 2010 @ 12:32 PM
Hey Victor,

I’m a business executive type person who have the odd habit of translating everything into a business environment in order to make things comprehensible for myself.
I’m not the least sentimental about this but I think, in order to attract the best people you have to be an… attractive employer offering more than just the nice cash they can get anywhere.
The obvious parallell of course being:
Quality singers with good studio equipment and a normal emotional life wouldn’t come here with great pellas if this place wasn’t a friendly place. They would take their pellas elsewhere. That’s why I believe values and a supportive atmosphere actually affects the quality of the music in the end.

I might be wrong about all this but I’m definitely not wrong when I tell you how much I love you for creating this place (still not sentimental).

Now, let’s all join hands and sing “We shall overcoooome”
permalink   MC Jack in the Box Sat, Oct 23, 2010 @ 1:22 PM
Just to hit on what Per brought up, I think it’s a fine line (and balance) between being “too supportive” and being “too unfriendly”.

Just because you might get a bad comment, doesn’t mean everyone thinks that. That’s the beauty of opinion. But if constructive criticism gets lost in the name of being a friendly place, that’s a compromise I have issues with.

I’ve never looked at ccmixter as a place where people can learn how to remix, or produce, or learn audio engineering in general. There’s lots of places online that do a fine job with that. And I’m not saying this to be mean, if someone wants to start a thread in the forum on production (and they do) that’s fine.

My point is ccmixter is not a place to submit “demos” or “works in progress” looking for feedback on how to improve it. It’s a place for finished products.

As artists, we should all mutually respect each others artistic ideas, and I think we do that well here. There are a number of “unconventional” artists whose work has been embraced by the ccmixter community on it’s own terms. And that’s one of the beautiful things about the community. It’s a melting pot of cultures, of music styles, of experience and knowledge which is freely shared.

So just to reaffirm Victor’s point, it really is about the pellas. It’s why I’m here. For the pellas. There, I said it. It’s not the only reason I’m here, but it’s why I stuck around. because of folks like J. Lang, Forensic, KCentric, Lisa DB, Brad Sucks, State Shirt, Shannon Hurley, and so many other really fine artists who gave up their fear of sharing for a wealth of remixes. It’s their source that brought the remixes, and once other artists saw what was happening, they bought in. Sometimes this might get abused (I think beckfords had some issues recently) but it’s the exception more than the rule.

quality begets more quality. And when there’s lots of quality, everyone’s happy, which makes for a nice friendly place!

of course if your name is Paul Williams……. :O
permalink   timberman Sat, Oct 23, 2010 @ 2:25 PM
Agree with MCJ, just adding, constructive criticism and being friendly is not like oil and water but it is difficult, people take classes and read books about how to deliver constructive criticism in a positive and supportive way. Colab’s a very good example of how to do it.
permalink   timberman Sat, Oct 23, 2010 @ 3:03 PM
….and here’s the short version of the book:
“What I like about your mix is………” and then “What I think would improve your mix is……..”

permalink   Admiral Bob Sat, Oct 23, 2010 @ 3:19 PM
It is harder with remixes than it is with “bands” - a lot harder. Music is much less boxed into genres, and you can’t exactly complain about the bad note in a guitar solo at 2:02, if the guitar solo is a sample, can you? :)
permalink   MC Jack in the Box Sat, Oct 23, 2010 @ 3:54 PM
Quote: Admiral BobIt is harder with remixes than it is with “bands” - a lot harder. Music is much less boxed into genres, and you can’t exactly complain about the bad note in a guitar solo at 2:02, if the guitar solo is a sample, can you? :)

no, but as a vocalist who submits a pella (and remember….this is why i’m here!), if your pella gets twisted wrong, it could turn you off and out. Obvious examples being poorly synched vocals (usually a bpm issue) or using vocals in the wrong key. I know some of these issues jump out immediately to the “musician producers”, meaning folks that either write music, play instruments or understand music theory. To others they may not be a big deal, but this is still an area that impacts both the “signal to noise” ratio, as well as the need for constructive criticism.

If a pella is out of synch, do you just let it slide or do you mention it? I guess if it’s your pella, it’s an issue. I know Ms. Vybe ain’t shy about mentioning it! (bless her heart). But others might just not care enough to stir the pot (I usually fall into this category).

I guess part of what I’m saying here is by being critical sometimes (and doing it with diplomacy I might add!) is a way of protecting the source artist from saying “we don’t care how your vocals are used”.

Because me, I do care. And by caring, and being protective of them, we raise the bar we’re talking about.
permalink   spinmeister Sat, Oct 23, 2010 @ 9:15 PM
Quote: Admiral BobIt is harder with remixes than it is with “bands” - a lot harder. Music is much less boxed into genres, and you can’t exactly complain about the bad note in a guitar solo at 2:02, if the guitar solo is a sample, can you? :)
… you may not be able to complain about the bad note, but you sure can fix, cut or bury it!
permalink   Snowflake Mon, Oct 25, 2010 @ 9:47 AM
yes spin! a great producer will just leave out the parts of a pella that are out of tune.

a great pella can be mortar for almost any remix, unless that remix is an entirely different key, or completely out of sync (to agree with MCJBox).

there are pellas of mine that I cringe when I listen back - how did I post a song with a note that badly out of pitch??? (like the high note in Apologize right before the solo. i noticed radiotimes and loveshadow just left out that note.) great producers make us singers sound better than we actually are, largely due to their discretion :)
permalink   timberman Mon, Oct 25, 2010 @ 12:58 PM
Emily, in my humble opinion that depends completely on what perspective the producer has on his or her work and what he or she want to achieve.
With your definition, someone like for instance myself will never become a good producer but sometimes when I work with my Panu-mixes and let his voice shine as it is, imperfections, glitches and all, my eyes get wet because he sounds real and vulnerable and that’s what’s important to me.
permalink   Admiral Bob Mon, Oct 25, 2010 @ 1:15 PM
Ditto. I will suck permanently now. ;-)

I might try to tamp down digital pops and stuff, but it is usually the vocal the way it is that inspires me to remix. Sometimes it is even the cracking voice or the slightly missed note that makes the part for me.
permalink   spinmeister Mon, Oct 25, 2010 @ 1:21 PM
One of the interesting things about music is, that opinions can diverge dramatically. That’s how musical sub cultures form. And that’s quite ok with me.

But I tune everyone, because when notes are more than 30-50 cents off their intended pitch for too long, it hurts my ears a little. I don’t have perfect pitch by any means, but I may be a little more sensitive than some on this topic (and probably less sensitive than others).

In one of my remixes I didn’t tune, because the artist in question had been pretty vocal about disliking tuning technology. And every time I listen to that remix now, it makes me cringe a little. I’m torn whether to fix it, or to leave it as a reminder to myself. :-)

p.s.: tuning doesn’t always mean t-pain — tuning can be done transparently leaving the character of the performance intact. Just like compression can be used transparently or as an audible effect.
permalink   timberman Mon, Oct 25, 2010 @ 1:30 PM
I don’t know where this thread is going but how I wish we could have this discussion over a few bottles of wine.
What is good taste? What is a good remix?
permalink   spinmeister Mon, Oct 25, 2010 @ 1:48 PM
A quality conversation around art is always tricky, so blame the good admiral for starting it ;-)

More seriously, I hope you noticed that I didn’t criticize people for doing things differently than me. I just articulated how I do things and why. That’s my own set of priorities, which doesn’t have to be shared by others.

However I’d love to share a few bottles of good wine with you and everyone else here!
permalink   timberman Mon, Oct 25, 2010 @ 1:55 PM
That’s another good question we could discuss, “what is a quality conversation?”
permalink   Admiral Bob Mon, Oct 25, 2010 @ 3:06 PM
If they can get you into a brain scanner, they might find out.
permalink   spinmeister Mon, Oct 25, 2010 @ 3:40 PM
lol - brilliant!
permalink   Speck Fri, Nov 12, 2010 @ 5:39 PM
Totally agree with you here St. Paul. The example that best illustrates this for me is SackJo’s very first mix, One For Me, and the Loveshadow remix of same, 1:4:ME. Loveshadow’s production skills are as good as any producer I’ve ever heard anywhere. It is undeniably of extremely high quality. So how come I so much prefer SackJo’s version. (I guess this is A Little OT inside The Big OT.)
permalink   Snowflake Sat, Oct 23, 2010 @ 1:02 PM
we need to do that pella drive eh?

i was speaking with mike & eric at the CC last week, and we had a variation of this discussion - focused on quality at ccMixter.

regardless of form victor, you’re the leader of this site.
permalink   Abstract Audio Sun, Oct 24, 2010 @ 5:20 AM
At this stage with the level so constant, don’t attract each now? I can imagin when began(?) you draw more attention with vocals, proberbly there wasn’t onther yet with that in such numbers?
Abstract Audio
permalink   Tue, Nov 9, 2010 @ 1:03 PM
How do you people manage to get such great songs uploaded so sone after the secret mixter???
permalink   Clarence Simpson Wed, Nov 10, 2010 @ 2:51 PM
I don’t know if I’m supposed to be part of “you people” in this case, but I know that I lucked out with how amazingly well my guitar fit with snowflake’s pella. So, finishing that song took a tiny fraction of the time that my secret mixter took. Of course, it was also a much simpler song (only 2 tracks compared to the 24 of my secret mixter upload).