DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed below are those of Victor Stone and his alone and do not necessarily represent Creative Commons or anyone associated with CC.
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Well, this should be an interesting couple of months.

Creative Commons has posted a Request for Proposals (RFP) regarding the future of the ccMixter.org site. This means that individuals and organizations are encouraged to submit proposals and the CC Board will be choosing the most suitable one to take over operations and ownership of the site.

I’d like to put down in writing my thoughts and have a place to point people if and when they ask me questions about this.

- My History With the RFP -

Early last year I was told that CC was interested in transferring the ownership of this site to an individual or organization better suited to running and operating a community music website since this was getting beyond their expertise. A while after that I had some discussions with Prof. Lessig, CC lawyers, John Buckman from Magnatune and several dozen artists on the site about possible implications. A short time after that, CC lawyers got extremely concerned because, as a non-profit, there are special rules involving this kind of hand over and everything slowed way down to make sure all the proper bases would be covered.

This is when I was taken completely out of the loop of any discussions and effectively put into a ‘clean room’ so there could be no hint of any conflict of interest between myself, CC and any future owner of the site.

A while after that Prof. Lessig wrote a letter to all registered users on the site, commented on the general idea in his blog (for which I provided background on the community’s attitudes and expectations as I understood them at the time) and the site conducted a survey of users.

And that brings us up to date because I have been waiting for the results of that process just like everybody else.

- To Members of ccMixter -

The RFP process, as I read it, is just starting and looks like it will take no less than four months to play itself out, quite possibly longer. That tells me that nothing at all will change on the site between now and then with regards to how the site works.

The RFP itself is a long and dense document but there is a section that reads:

Quote: CC makes no commitment regarding ongoing affiliation, participation or collaboration by current CC or ccMixter.org employees, consultants or volunteers post-closing. Proposals may not require any such commitments as a condition to closing or entering into a definitive agreement.

I think they are talking about me. What they are saying is that when somebody is thinking about submitting a proposal they can’t say “We’re only interested if Victor promises to continue to work on the site.” This restriction is a Good Thing.

This is CC looking out for their interests as well as mine. CC needs to be able to do a deal with or without my involvement and I need to be able to make a choice on my own. The way I see it, if the bidding entity is really the best thing for the site (as determined by the CC Board) then that’s all that matters. I am hardly irreplaceable. Much worse things could happen to the site than if a really hot programmer took over the code. And finding a more amiable, suitable public face for the site could be done with a blindfold, a few darts and a phone book.

What’s my prediction? I predict that the site will, somehow, survive essentially just the way it is. What do I base this on? Nothing other than my sense that enough people see it’s value, both big and small, commercial and otherwise, who don’t want it to go away. Plus I trust the CC Board. I’m not being coy and I don’t have any inside information on CC or potential interested parties so you could say my optimism isn’t supported by the facts ;) It’s just a gut thing.

- To Potential Bidders -

The RFP is pretty explicit about communications with folks here at the site. Know that anything you say to me, outside of a non-disclosure that covers me, should be considered for public consumption, even if you send it in private email, even if it says “CONFIDENTIAL” because I won’t be bound by that.

At the very least you should assume that CC is “in the room” because I will forward and copy any communication to me directly to CC. There is a time and place for discretion (or so I’m told) but this is not it. It’s very important to me that this is an open, fair, no-back-room dealing affair.

- Why ccMixter Matters -

In this section I’d like to spell out what it is about ccMixter that motivates me to work so hard on it.

— The Power of the Commons —

ccMixter represents something bigger than our individual selves and the music we individually contribute. This is not just another website where a collection of walled-off musicians trying to “make it” post countess profile pages stacked end-to-end all vying for attention. We are not just another social networking site where our pages point to each other because we are “friends.” Our music points to each others’ music. We are having an open public discourse amongst each using our creative output and sharing the results.

ccMixter doesn’t have MySpace or GarageBand.com numbers partly because we actively turn away musicians who don’t understand this and expect to able to upload back catalogs of their pre-recorded materials. Unlike any other music site, we only accept music that re-uses material from the Commons or samples specifically aimed at that re-use. This is because we understand the power of the Commons and know that musicians do better together than alone.

This site has become an important incubator for truly excellent musicians who realize that “giving their music away is good for their careers” and that in an environment like this, they can shed their fears of both piracy and obscurity. They have found through a new way of unfettered, free-wheeling re-use of each others’ creative contributions and working with each other, as opposed to pitted against each other (as in the tradition music industry), their own musicianship and the resulting work is all the more satisfying artistically, emotionally and aurally.

— ccMixter’s Role in the Open Music Movement —

This site has become an important leader in turning around the idea in music consumers’ minds that free (as in beer) music must be either illegal or suck. Working together, the musicians here are building a new reputation for open music.

We understand that people judge the entire open music movement based on what they hear here. We welcome their scrutiny and judgment, we take it on with joy and pride. I don’t hesitate to say this community has already done a stunning job at living up to that challenge. I would put their music toe-to-toe with any music site, open or not, commercial or not — and, so far, we haven’t lost any souls along the way ;)

— On Fair Treatment of Artists —

There are quite enough people, indeed an industry with a 100 year head start, doing their best to screw with musicians. ccMixter is the place where we prove that success doesn’t have to cost the musician the rights to their music, wallet or soul. The course through this new terrain is not always obvious but even as I inadvertently stumble around and inexcusably step on a few toes along the way, it is always out of respect for the artists’ talent and potential. They (mostly) forgive my baggage-laden way of raising awareness of this collective potential because they know that, ultimately, I am on their side and I am filled with love, respect and awe for them.

So, to potential bidders, please keep this mind: The musicians are, and will continue to be, my primary cause as opposed to any specific entity (including yours). You can expect me to be their advocate and I will need you to support that.

I am eager to work with any individual or organization, commercial or not, on the future of this site because while CC has done a spectacular job at taking the community this far, it has taken it as far as it can — and yet the talent here is massively under-leveraged. There are many important scenarios to explore and many challenges ahead for creating an environment worthy of the people gathered here.

Peace,
VS

[UPDATE June 6] A thread has been started to discuss the possibility of a bidding proposal by the members of the ccMixter as a collective. Read more here…

I for one am very excited and have been since the initial conversation was started. I feel very fortunate to be included in this exciting step forward and even more fortunate to be sharing this experience with everyone here.

I love ccMixter (duh). And I would not stand idly by if I felt that the integrity of this site or this community were compromised in any way.

I trust the collective consciousness of the community. And I trust the vision of the site’s founders, CC staff and judgment of the Board.

Above all I appreciate the openness of the whole process and the respect shown to the community which I feel is a strong indicator that any result will be a community-driven decision.

Bring it on!

A great post, Victor.

It’s interesting to see this all unfold.

I haven’t spent as much time or energy here recently as I would in an ideal world. but clear as day, I can see that CCMIXTER is actually forming the culture of now. don’t underestimate the power of this environment.

for me, unfortunately, it only fits some of the time. I use ‘illegal’ samples a lot of the time…i often make what would be considered here an original track and not a remix…but whenever i do stop by, I always feel welcome (ahhhhh!).

everyone here is making art and you (we) should be proud of that. whatever happens, find a way to keep going!

and thanks to Victor for having done such a good, consistent job…I am not worried about him though, haha, he’ll be fine!

peASH!
wan

Great post Victor and I admire your openess and candour re all that is happening at CCM.

Something that comes across to me in all this is the apparent need by the CC people to find someone to move this site forward yet they do not say exactly the direction THEY would like to see it go in.

There are remarks regarding the integrity of the site which are well put and their support for the members is admirable. But! What do they really want.

Do they want Sony, EMI, etc to take the existing formant add to it and develop an artists platform for exposure leading to Web sales and profit for artist and site owner or do they want something smaller more Mom and Pop style.

Be interesting to see what other Mixters want.

Personally I would like to see some sort of format that would allow artists work to be forwarded with their consent to suitable entities that could then use that work in single song release, film and TV, advertising, etc.

Unless you have good contacts the music is never enough to get you in the door let alone at the table to sign the contract! A little help in this would I am sure find some good homes for the many talented people who contribute to this site.

I am very pleased to see that CC has posted the RFP for ccMixter.

I joined ccMixter in 2005 with an entry to the Copyright Criminals remix contest. ( and I’m a proud supporter.)

This is a GREAT site and I would love to see it move in a positive direction. I believe that the heart of this community is our talented artists. I would like to see more commercial opportunities open up for those that are interested in pursuing them.

I hope that the potential owners take a look at what has already been established and build around the original model.

I want to openly thank Victor and all the ccM staff for doing a TREMENDOUS job too!

I’m eager to see what the next few months hold. (fingers, eyes, and toes crossed) :-)


Peace,
-KCentric

Great post Victor. I am looking forward to what the future will bring. The community that you’ve built here is strong, vibrant and creative so whatever happens next I am confident that with you at the helm the spirit of ccMixter will survive.

If the spirit is willing, sky’s the limit!
n9

Not only is ccM “good for their careers”..but it’s also important for the musicians here to realize that sharing music this way is good for everybody…. one of the basic tenets of the Commons.

The attitude and culture here is always evolving toward a better thing, and I know from cough cough personal experience that at least one bluesboy has had a conversion to the idea of the Commons..thanks to Raaphorst, Stone, Teru and G. (is that a new law firm? Robert??)

There is no way an outside entity can change the culture here..if it does, this would not be the Collective..and as Vic says above, and as I know the people here (who are thankfully not the sheeple here), that ain’t a gwanna happen.

We are moving to a new model, making it up as we go along. With the way the world is headed, it is imperative for all of us to understand interdependency and sharing of resources. The alternative is totalitarianism. I prefer the Commons

HOORAY TRANSPARENCY!
That will be all.
;-)

this is a great post Victor, and very clear about where the process is going. thank you for making sure that we are all up to speed.

i am in agreement with you that it is very important that any innovations introduced to ccmixter do not undermine what makes it unique. in that respect there are a couple of things that in my mind any future interest must avoid. i think a drive for higher numbers and visitors and exposure for the sake of it would be artificial and against the grain of the site. i also think that the basic architecture that you have created - how the site works technically (uploading, remixing, sharing) and philosophically (everybody ‘gets’ the commons) - is sound and shouldn’t have to be overhauled. a lot of the time i think new management suffers its new responsibilities by introducing too much change where it isn’t necessary and i fear this happening to ccmixter.

having said that, a coherent and sensible expansion of what ccmixter does is something that i would welcome - i.e. a greater exposure for the material that is generated on and by the site. whether that is a commercial model for licensing or a separate ‘a&r’ style wing, what is most important for the future of ccmixter is a sense of confidence in it has already achieved.

phew! now i am going to have some nice cold apple juice on this hot day. love you guys.

I’m happy to see the RFP go out. Mixter can’t be maintained by CC forever. For its own sake it has to be adopted by new owners.

That said, I am much less anti commercial than most people in these parts. I think that nothing less than being a good business will allow this project to thrive in the long run.

First let me say, i welcome change. Nothing last forever. I only hope that the change to come is in a positive direction. With that in mind, let’s all hope that the basic ideals that ccMixter was founded on remains intact.
As it was stated, ccMixter is very unique and very innovating.
I personally, love looking forward to hearing remixes and collaborating with people i would have never had the chance to, if it wasn’t for ccMixter.

I’m looking forward to change, but lets not forget how we got here.

Very good post Victor, and thanks for keep us in the loop.

I’ll throw my 2 cents into this discussion because I can, and that too is a good thing.

First, very well-stated post Victor. I won’t address all your points directly, but I was nodding my head, in a reading and not a listening sort of way, as I was going through it.

I think this community is amazing and it’s potential is only limited by the imaginations of the people who get involved with it, so the idea of change for growth has to be good.

The only danger I see is if there is any attempt to restrict access to the site whether that means for purposes of uploading or downloading and usage. My fear is that if a “commercial” entity takes this place over they will want to “professionalize” it to make it all shiny and pretty. Musical dust-bunnies such as myself will have to go away then and the chance for lots of other people who want to come and learn and grow here will be lost.

I suppose my fears are also fueled by a changeover I saw with my college radio station. While I was still in school, our station, which was an all volunteer outfit, got suddenly taken over by paid management and most of our program hosts were replaced by paid people (I guess our few remaining guys are paid now too). As a result of the changeover the station is now, imho, and granted I don’t listen much, far more homogenous in it’s musical offerings but it also enjoys a very high profile and has some pretty fancy schmancy facilities including a whole club for one of it’s programs to do live concerts from. When I tune in every so often I don’t get the stunning musical education I once did and that makes me sad.

I don’t want the same thing to happen here, but I’m just one person. This place has a spirit that is comprised of the passions of it’s membership. The passions are for making, sharing, and also very importantly, commenting on music. Whatever happens here, the passions must be respected. If they are given a home, this place will continue to thrive, if they are cast out, this place will whither and die.

thanks for that post, Victor. It clarifies the context and time-frame of this process in a significant way. It will be interesting!

One related question: What’s the approximate monthly bandwidth usage for ccMixter? All that shipping of audio files must add up to a few GB.

Or is that question off-limits? Or should I ask it at the CC site?

In my most humble opinion, ccMixter.org is revolutionary. It is a place where musicians can come together, from around the planet, and interact, knowing that whatever they create is protected (if need be), appreciated, scrutinized, studied and, ultimately, championed. This site (to me) is primarily about the love of music and its creation. If one wants to take it into the commercial arena, no problem. If it’s just a hobby, no problem. If one wants to meet other musicians to create alliances, no problem. If it is a place where you can learn and expand your knowledge musically, no problem. This place has been one of the blessings I’ve received in this lifetime. As a singer/songwriter, it has reinvigorated me, personally. It has & still is changing my life as I type this. I would hope that in the changing of the guard, that these things would be kept at the fore front as what is most important about this site. Fourstones, I just want to personally thank you be being as naked as you have about your love for the site and its importance.

Great post Victor.

I’d like to reinforce some of the reservations others have expressed about the direction we take. For me, the site has a very special quality, and it’s no exaggeration to say that my involvement in the site has dramatically changed the way I think about music (and I’ve been at it for a while!) There’s something important going on here. I think we are in at the start of something really big in the way music is made and transmitted. It’s no longer about a “product” that is “marketed” and “consumed”, but about a process that is creative at every stage. This has been happening for a while - even the use of playlists is a sign of the way people want involvement in the shaping of their musical experience. And technology means that everyone can be involved in a process that (at the production end) used to be the reserve of an elite.

One of the implications of this shift is that it’s probably going to be harder for people who want to make a living out of music. It certainly will be for those who are stuck in the old model of how things work. I think it would be a real shame if the new managers of the site tried to change it into one based on the old “selling a product” mind-set. For the user, the site already has it right in just about every way. It’s a small, rather quirky, but intensely creative community, where variety and experimentation are valued, and the focus is always on learning from others how to do your own thing even better.

The design and running of the site seem to have all the right priorities. If there are ways of taking those strengths and finding ways of making links with the commercial music world, that’s great. But most of us would be very sad if ccMixter turned into a clone of the many other sites around that only sell the idea of self-promotion. I’m certain that if that happened many of us would decamp and set up something else.

And finally, let’s start a KEEP VS campaign!

My comments on the ccMixter experience (like a few of the other posted responses) arise from a non-commercial view-point. As someone who is not interested in entering the “music industry” I only approach the Mixter site as a source of inspiration and a place to meet and be sparked by other artists. I feel that in the few years which I have become a member of this site, I can honestly say that I found that inspiration and in addition found expression for some of my ideas (many of which I could NEVER have realized alone)and seen them materialize in ways often unexpected and superior to my original intent. My relationships with the other members of this site has been invaluable and through the abundant source materials freely given here as tools, I have seen my own creative inclinations towards songwriting/lyric-writing and singing improve and grow in new and very fulfilling directions.
In short, as far as a collaborative arena which exists solely for free exchange of talents cc.Mixter is unequaled and I am pretty sure that all members (whether aspiring musicians or simply artist’s seeking alternative means of self-expression) would agree with me on that point.
Thanks Victor, for guidance and for the mentally provocative posting.

Well, i’ve been reading the posts (not all of them). I’m non-english and it’s been an important effort for me to understand all what i’ve read (i think i do understand in the good way).
I only want to say that ccM is unique because of its mode of generate new music. In my opinion, the fact that users can only upload samples or remixes made up from samples of the site (also freesound, etc.)is vital for its existence, even if the owner is X or Y. This procedure and the permanence of the people that made ccM great is what I expect from the new owners.
I would like to say more but the english zone of my brain is now collapsed :)

Thanks for the update. Here’s my opinion for what it’s worth.

I would prefer to see ccMixter become a charity (or some sort of non-profit) ad-free and funded by donations, but that would only work if enough people will pledge to make regular donations. (I would be happy to pay £15 a month on this basis. Maybe more.)

If that’s not possible, my second preference would be for it become a independent for-profit company that doesn’t take ads. If its not going to take ads, the money will have to come from us in exchange for a service. Flickr’s pro account service might be a model to follow.

Running advertising is (IMO) preferable to no ccmixter at all.

(About me.)
I’m an amateur film-maker primarily seen on YouTube. I value ccMixter as a source of backing music and songs for music videos.

OK, ill get straight to the point. Firstly, Vic, you are not that easy to replace - its not simply a matter of getting someone in with technical skills, someone needs to be creative, inspirational, and have vision - and care about what this site means as well - you do. You seem the do the job of 3 people and would be irreplaceable.

My next point - if CC changes ownership, the site WILL change, and Im not certain for the better…

Why change something that works so well? Why would other parties want to get involved unless it were for profit?

profit vs quality - this is a difficult balance and in order to make profit, this site will have to get a larger number of hits which will lead to market “strategies” and other ways to bring in subscribers and will probably force annoying ads or banners to this site, etc and there will be other creative and subtle ways to take money away from us. So potentially the site could go from a site of people making creative music to a site where there are creative ways to make money. I say if it aint broke, dont try and fix it.! Look at Garageband.com, once a useful respectful site with a good community and excellent concept - now the community is dead (or removed), the site generates very poor reviews and it is basically a shell of it´s former self, it might be making money - but I hate it and I cant see what it has to offer for the musician. I used to be a GB regular, but I never go there anymore because the site has lost it´s “soul”.

If this site is going to be a profit making exercise, it is important to change very little if anything and to keep the integrety of the site intact - otherwise members will find another site to go to.

Of all the suggestions above, I think the idea of CC Members taking ownership of this site is the best one because at least the owners understand the site and why it is successful.

Thanks for the update Vic.
Vin.

Indulge me in a little tale. I run a video production company. If you did not know that you do now.

Ok advert over, I was commissioned a couple of years ago to make a film about a security company that has some large data storage facilities. I went to one location, not knowing exactly what data storage broadly meant and once inside began filming. There were some very large shelved storage areas with boxes. All very Raiders of the Lost Arc. Then I was taken into a smaller temperature controlled area with some pretty high security and left to there to film. To my amazement this space was full of shelves and shelves of master tapes. 2 inch 24 tracks, 2 tracks, PCMs on High Band etc. It was like a temple to mostly British recorded music since the 50s.

I walked up and down the aisles and then I stopped and carefully took out one of the 2 inch tapes which happened to be one of a series of Elton Johns ` Goodbye Yellow Brick Road’. I held it and thought how amazing it would be to hear it. Listen to the isolated tracks and see how the songs were recorded, hear what had been left out in the final mix etc. I put it back in its place.

Then I felt quite sad knowing all of this amazing material would never be shared or heard again in any new form unless thru some need to remarket the original. I mean imagine remixing Candle in the Wind.

Now the core of the success of this site is the sharing. No original work unless you give some of it back. International artistes and large labels have and still do, make millions commercially and few have interacted with any form of sharing in their talent in the way the CC offers. They maintain a tradition of fear.

Of course they know, to the thousands of people who just want an ipod full of tunes that they are not interested in a remix. Until that is when someone who would not listen to say a George Michael track hears it put into a different setting and suddenly they want it.

But its changing.Trifonic for instance represents a success out of this site that signals a positive future of a new type of artist. As people ` self release there will be more. But no one should feel guilty about creating or receiving some form of financial income and commercial success from the work here now or in the future as long as they continue whilst participating to give something back.

But this site is NOT only a remix site, it is a platform to create new works as in Calendar Girls case.There were no originals until CC people and those on her site made them.

So for me some of the key things to maintain are the commitment to share work at what ever level as we are making original works not just remixes. No original works unless parts are derivative from CC users. A separate pro CC mixter section where anyone can offer their work up to be considered for placement into a commercial setting but where by a portion of that fund builds a better CC mixter for general use or they offer the parts for remix as it is now.

It should always though keep the `unsigned, anyone can have a go ’ attitude that makes any remix site work.

Because one thing is clear that will happen and that is that when it becomes `all take’ either by the new owners for just financial gain, or any other faction with a separate agenda, it will disintegrate. But it will rise elsewhere to their dismay and loss.

They may have a few bucks in a bank account and a fancy website but they won’t have CC mixter.

This is awesome! Keep it up!

I’m probably typical of most folks here on the mixter, in that the news of change stirs both excitement and anxiety.

It’s interesting that although I’ve not been able recently to post much in the way of remixes or comments that I still feel connected to the community here. I have ccMixter to thank for introducing me to some pretty awesome folks who share many of my own hopes and dreams of a diverse and interesting future for music.

To this end we have Victor and the CC guys to thank whole heartedly, so thanks Vic for everything so far.

I truly hope you are retained in some shape or form, as a director of cc-music at the very least, you’ve been a good captain of this ship so far.

As for my thoughts on the big sell-out, I think it’s going to be interesting to say the least.

I know many people here, myself included, often ponder on the steps from CC for free to CC for fee. If we’d be comfortable with it, and what to do if we’re not.

My gut feeling is that we shouldn’t be overly-rebellious, lets set back and see what happens. We’ve not run aground just yet.

Gurdonark, pass the grog would ya?